Will someone please explain this use of "-n?"
av Foreigner, 9 juli 2014
Meddelanden: 7
Språk: English
Foreigner (Visa profilen) 9 juli 2014 11:58:35
I also don't quite understand why "da" was used instead of "de." I understand that "da" refers to quantity. So I would read this as "He drank (one) cup of coffee." If "de" was used, would that imply that the cup is made of coffee?
Duko (Visa profilen) 9 juli 2014 12:31:55
Or you might say a cup-full of coffee. "Taso" in this case does not represent the physical object "the cup", but a quantity. Hence the "da".
"Taso" is the object of drinking, you can use it independently (Kiom li trinkis? Li trinkis tason.) or you can describe the quantity and specify what it was made of.
Even in English the object of the sentence will be the cup. See a similar English example:
I ate a bag of peanuts. Then I ate another.
Why do I use the word another? Because I at another bag (of peanuts). I doesn't mean that I ate another peanut. And of course it doesn't imply that I ate a plastic bag, just the content.
Same in Esperanto:
Mi mangxis saketon da arakidoj. Poste mi mangxis plian.
patrik (Visa profilen) 9 juli 2014 13:57:41
morfran (Visa profilen) 9 juli 2014 21:32:12
patrik:Here's an explanation: From "Being Colloquial in Esperanto"I love that book! I have it in paperback — never thought to look for an online version. Thanks for the link!
eric_vandenburg (Visa profilen) 9 juli 2014 23:49:30
Foreigner:To me this is purely grammatical. Da is a preposition, (prepozicio, rolvorteto) so what follows it is no longer a direct object and doesn't get the accusative -n. It's not so much the philosophical question of what is being drunk, the coffee or the cup, it's simply the structure of the sentence. Depending on what you want to draw attention to, you can reorganize the sentence to make the coffee the object if you like:
"Li trinkis tasoN da kafO;" written exactly like that. The program is pointing out that the "-n" goes on the "taso" and not the "kafo." Why is this? I understand "-n" to mark the direct object, the receiver of the verb. So when I see this sentence I would think the "he" is drinking "the cup," and not "coffee." Does anyone care to comment on this?
Li trinkis tason da kafo
Li trinkis kafon el taso.
or even:
La kafplena taso estis trinkita de li.
But yeah, when to use the accusative case isn't what you'd call the tiniest section of Esperanto grammar. Keep at it!
sudanglo (Visa profilen) 10 juli 2014 11:55:44
So when I see this sentence I would think the "he" is drinking "the cup," and not "coffee." Does anyone care to comment on this?Although Esperanto is a very literal language (very suitable for people with Aspergers) it is not so literal that it flies completely in the face of common sense. You can't literally drink cups (they are not made out of liquid).
If you can think of a container that is liquid, then perhaps some confusion could arise in the form li trinkis X-on da Y-o, though probably not, as the 'da' shows that the X-on is being treated as a measure.
When something is made out of some material the preposition is 'el'. 'De' is used when there is an idea of the constituents, the make-up (or some other characterizing connection or association).
So Bukedo da rozoj puts the emphasis on the quantity, Bukedo de rozoj shows the composition. This is a rather fine distinction, and there can be cases where one hesitates over 'da' versus 'de.
EDIT: I ran a test on the Tekstaro comparing grupo de and grupo da. There were 208 hits for grupo de, 82 for grupo da.
There were some hits for grupo el - mainly with the meaning of 'from' eg grupo el Hispanujo
sergejm (Visa profilen) 10 juli 2014 12:26:06
sudanglo:I ran a test on the Tekstaro comparing kvanto de and kvanto da (quantity of)
EDIT: I ran a test on the Tekstaro comparing grupo de and grupo da. There were 208 hits for grupo de, 82 for grupo da.
There were more than 100 of both.
But in most cases, after kvanto de there was la, tiuj, miaj, tri (the, these, my, three) etc.
After kvanto de there was no these words.