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The pesky -n

od basica, 03. september 2014

Sporočila: 10

Jezik: English

basica (Prikaži profil) 03. september 2014 11:43:40

I was doing the test, and if it wasn't for the accusative section I probably would have passed. I failed due to questions similar to this, and I was wondering if one could explain to me what I'm missing? ridulo.gif

So the questions I got wrong were along the lines of:

li diris pri mi
cxu vi provas helpi al mi?

(I tried to change em up a bit, though I believe there's a pool of questions used in the test anyways)

And wanted to know if the n was needed in either case (it wasn't). A tip I was given was to try using he, she or I in the sentence and if it changes to him/her/me then it probably requires the -n. So, why in this case is it not required? I'm getting a bit frustrated with myself trying to understand it and it doesn't appear that I've been making headway.

Fenris_kcf (Prikaži profil) 03. september 2014 12:25:51

In English "me" and "him" are not only used as accusative. So both "i see him." (accusative use) and "i give it to him." (dative use) are correct. In Esperanto however the "-n" is not appended in the dative-situation: "mi vidas lin." and "mi donas ĝin al li".

thumb-rule: If preceded by a preposition one does not append "-n" to the noun. Exception for this rule are movements: "vi iras sur la tegmento." ("you walk on the roof.") vs. "vi iras sur la tegmenton." ("you walk onto the roof.").

Kirilo81 (Prikaži profil) 03. september 2014 12:26:41

The rule of the thumb with him/her doesn't work after prepositions, as English always uses the accusative after them, while Esperanto always uses the nominative after them, unless you want to express the goal of an action which is not yet expressed in the preposition (after prepositions with inherent goal like al there is no accusative either).

sergejm (Prikaži profil) 03. september 2014 12:28:50

-n is not need if preposition is used. -n is used this preposition if it means direction.
This is an example illustrate it:
mi surmetis ĉemizon sur min = I put on a shirt on(to) me
mi surhavas ĉemizon sur mi = I wear a shirt on me
(I am not sure my translation to Engish is correct)

Alkanadi (Prikaži profil) 03. september 2014 13:41:22

I struggle a bit with this also. One thing that helps me is to think like this: If a sentence has two nouns then one of them takes the -n ending. One of them is having an action applied to it.

Example:
The woman loves the dog
La virino amas la hundon

In this case, the dog is being loved. An action is being applied to the dog. The dog is the victim of the action.

The dog will go to the house
La hundo estos iri al la domo

In this case, the house does not have an action being applied to it. Rather, the second noun is being used to describe the action of the first.

The women is a doctor
La virino estas doktoro

In this case, the noun "doktoro" does not have an action being applied to it. The second noun is being used to qualify or describe something about the first.

But, I don't know because I am a noob. This is just how I think about it and it seems to work. Just try to think and see if one of the nouns are a victim of an action.

tommjames (Prikaži profil) 03. september 2014 14:38:30

fenris:thumb-rule: If preceded by a preposition one does not append "-n" to the noun. Exception for this rule are movements: "vi iras sur la tegmento." ("you walk on the roof.") vs. "vi iras sur la tegmenton." ("you walk onto the roof.").
There is another exception. The accusative may also follow a preposition if the preposition acts on a number word as a "nuancilo" (eg. Mi pagis super cent eŭrojn ). PMEG has other examples.

orthohawk (Prikaži profil) 03. september 2014 15:29:52

Alkanadi: being loved. An action is being applied to the dog. The dog is the victim of the action.

The dog will go to the house
La hundo estos iri al la domo
Just use "iros" here, not "estos iri"

johmue (Prikaži profil) 04. september 2014 05:44:08

I will try to explain the principle.

Let's consider the english sentence "The father is bringing the child to the doctor."

We have three nouns:
  • "the father" = "la patro"
  • "the child" = "la infano"
  • "the doctor" = "la kuracisto"
Then we have the verb: "is bringing" = "portas".

Let's use the fact, that Esperanto lets us shuffle the parts of the sentence and make up the sentence like

"La kuracisto portas la infano la patro."

So we see three persons are involved and someone is bringing presumably someone. The role of the third person is unclear. And we don't know who has which role. So we need indicators to indicate who has which role. (Bertilo is talking about "rolmontriloj".)

So we need a "rolmontrilo" for all three persons. We have
  • "-n" for the direct object, so the one being brought = la infano
  • "al" for the one where something is brought to = la kuracisto
  • "" for the one that is actually doing something = la patro.
So let's apply our roleindicators:

"Al la kuracisto portas la infanon la patro."

We don't need to attach an "-n" to "kuracisto" because we already have "al" as our roleindicator.

Unfortunately there are prepositions (=roleindicators) that can indicate two different roles, namely place and direction. Then we need to extend our roleindicator by applying "-n" to dinstinguish between place and direction.

Example:

"En la hospitalo portas la infanon la patro."
(The father is carrying the child around in the hospital [to calm it down].)

"En la hospitalon portas la infanon la patro."
(The fahter is bringing the child into the hospital.)

The preposition (=roleindicator) "en" can indicate the role of either place or direction. The "-n" then indicates that "en" is indicating direction. The absence of "-n" indicates that "en" is indicating place.

basica (Prikaži profil) 04. september 2014 13:12:42

Thank you everyone for your answers, I greatly appreciate it. I think I have a bit more of a firmer grasp now but I think my next take on the test will determine that! ridego.gif

sudanglo (Prikaži profil) 05. september 2014 10:48:46

The thing about -n is that it marks something. It specifies or limits the meaning, often by tying one word in a certain way to another.

So if you see an -n, the question always arises as to what is being expressed, or what is being tied to what.

Of course the most common function is to signal the direct object (the 'victim' of the verb if you like).

But there are considerable subtleties beyond that. Can you see the difference below?

Ĉu vi konas la lingvon Esperanto?
Ĉu vi konas Esperanton, la internacian lingvon de Zamenhof?
Ĉu vi konas la filon de mia amiko Johano?
Ĉu vi konas le filon de mia amiko, Johanon?

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