Al la enhavo

demando pri "vi"

de jdwinger, 2014-septembro-20

Mesaĝoj: 52

Lingvo: English

Breto (Montri la profilon) 2014-septembro-27 05:40:04

nornen:I have another question to the English native speakers:
[...]
Have you ever felt the same need (or desire) about the gender of the second person (like e.g. Arabic 'anta and 'anti, or Spanish vosotros and vosotras)?
Have you ever had the impression that another pronoun would come in handy?
E.g. gender distinction in "we" (nosotros-nosotras), or gender distinction in "they" (*hes, *shes, *its) (ellos-ellas)?
Different pronouns for different relations between speaker and listener (du-Sie, tu-vous, tú-usted, boku, ore, atashi, watashi)?
Different pronouns for inclusive and exclusive "we" or "you (pl)"?
Different pronouns for animate and inanimate antecedents?
Different pronouns for rational and irrational antecedents?
Of the different things "missing" from the English pronoun system, the only one I really feel the absence of is inclusive/exclusive "we". A singular/plural distinction in the second person would be nice, but then, that's why we have so many dialectal answers for it. A singular, non-gendered animate third person would be nice, but then, that's why singular "they" is so popular. ("It" vs. not-"it" often covers the (in)animate distinction.)

The familiar/formal distinction is usually covered by proper names rather than pronouns. (Is he "Mr. Smith" or is he "Jim"?)

Not familiar with rational vs. irrational, though.

kaŝperanto:I am in the same boat, as are we all if we're honest. I doubt one speaker exists who has never used "you guys" or "y'all" or any other such construct, but I find it highly unnecessary to distinguish the gender of someone I am talking to directly. It would feel highly demeening, like in "You girl, go fetch me some more wine." I can see no informational purpose to distinguish gender when talking directly with someone.
You have two employees who brought you ideas for a project; one a man and the other a woman. You tell them: "I liked your idea a lot. Yours was stupid, though; you're fired." Which one was just fired? (Sure, you could just point, but then you could just point to indicate a lot of things we have words for.)

BoriQa (Montri la profilon) 2014-septembro-27 14:11:08

vi ĉiuj : y'all, you all
vi ambaŭ : you both

How about "you two", "the pair of you", "you three", "the three of you", "the four of you", etc...

Would those be? : vi duo, vi trio, vi kvaro, etc...

sergejm (Montri la profilon) 2014-septembro-27 14:22:44

vi du, vi duope, du da vi, du el vi etc.

BoriQa (Montri la profilon) 2014-septembro-27 14:52:28

Breto:You have two employees who brought you ideas for a project; one a man and the other a woman. You tell them: "I liked your idea a lot. Yours was stupid, though; you're fired." Which one was just fired? (Sure, you could just point, but then you could just point to indicate a lot of things we have words for.)
Very nice one!

Here is my try:

vi mem : you yourself (indefinite)
vi memviro: you yourself (masculine)
vi memino: you yourself (feminine)

"I liked your idea a lot. Yours was stupid, though; you're fired."

-> Mi tre ŝatas vian memviran ideon. Kvankam, la via memina ideo estis stulta. Vi memino maldungas.

or:

-> Mi tre ŝatas vian meminan ideon. Kvankam, la via memvira ideo estis stulta. Vi memviro maldungas.

===

PS. For a subject, this usage actually exists in Spanish.

usted (indefinite)
usted mismo (masculine)
usted misma (feminine)

The last sentence would be: "usted mismo está despedido" or "usted misma está despedida"; and you would clearly know who was fired (although since the adjective agrees in gender, mismo and misma are actually unnecessary to clarify who was actually fired in Spanish).

BoriQa (Montri la profilon) 2014-septembro-27 14:54:24

sergejm:vi du, vi duope, du da vi, du el vi etc.
Dankon!

But, wouldn't "vi du" be to close to "Vidu" to create confusion?

sergejm (Montri la profilon) 2014-septembro-27 16:23:56

BoriQa:
sergejm:vi du, vi duope, du da vi, du el vi etc.
Dankon!

But, wouldn't "vi du" be to close to "Vidu" to create confusion?
Note the accent:
Vi dú, vídu! - You two, see!
But you can choose another variant.

BoriQa (Montri la profilon) 2014-septembro-27 19:55:00

sergejm:
BoriQa:
sergejm:vi du, vi duope, du da vi, du el vi etc.
Dankon!

But, wouldn't "vi du" be to close to "Vidu" to create confusion?
Note the accent:
Vi dú, vídu! - You two, see!
But you can choose another variant.
True! Thanks!

Bemused (Montri la profilon) 2014-septembro-28 02:39:30

nornen:I have another question to the English native speakers:

Nowadays English has 7 personal pronouns (compared to e.g. 9 in German, 14 in Spanish, 12 in Arabic, and about 7 trillion in Japanese):
The first person distinguishes number, but not gender: I and we.
The second person doesn't distinguish neither number nor gender: you.
The third person distinguishes number and gender (in the singular): he, she, it, they.

Now various of you (youse, y'all) have expressed that sometimes they have the need (or at least the desire) to make a difference between the number of the second person.

Here my questions:
Have you ever felt the same need (or desire) about the gender of the second person (like e.g. Arabic 'anta and 'anti, or Spanish vosotros and vosotras)?
Have you ever had the impression that another pronoun would come in handy?
E.g. gender distinction in "we" (nosotros-nosotras), or gender distinction in "they" (*hes, *shes, *its) (ellos-ellas)?
Different pronouns for different relations between speaker and listener (du-Sie, tu-vous, tú-usted, boku, ore, atashi, watashi)?
Different pronouns for inclusive and exclusive "we" or "you (pl)"?
Different pronouns for animate and inanimate antecedents?
Different pronouns for rational and irrational antecedents?
I believe English would work better with:

- a plural you. There are work arounds such as "you all" or "all of you", but a single word would avoid the need for work arounds.

- a non gender specific word meaning s/he (he or she).This would avoid the need to use "they" when the gender of someone being spoken about is unknown.

- a non gender specific word meaning Mr/Mrs/Ms/Miss. This would make the formal address to someone whose gender is unknown less clumsy. Eg when writing, "Dear (insert new word here) " instead of "Dear Sir or Madam" or "(insert new word here)" instead of "Mr or Mrs".

nornen (Montri la profilon) 2014-septembro-28 03:05:43

Bemused:- a non gender specific word meaning Mr/Mrs/Ms/Miss. This would make the formal address to someone whose gender is unknown less clumsy. Eg when writing, "Dear (insert new word here) " instead of "Dear Sir or Madam" or "(insert new word here)" instead of "Mr or Mrs".
In Spanish we use in these cases "a quien le concierne (...me dirijo a usted por la presente para comunicarle que...)". Does the English "to whom it may concern" work, too, or is it lacking respect or formality in English?

Breto (Montri la profilon) 2014-septembro-28 04:30:08

nornen:In Spanish we use in these cases "a quien le concierne (...me dirijo a usted por la presente para comunicarle que...)". Does the English "to whom it may concern" work, too, or is it lacking respect or formality in English?
I wouldn't say that "to whom it may concern" lacks respect or formality...almost the opposite, really. It kind of screams "form letter", suggesting that no humans were involved in its creation. The language might also be a tad dated...that might just be me, though.

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