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Word combinations

kelle poolt Alkanadi, 25. september 2014

Postitused: 12

Keel: English

Alkanadi (Näita profiili) 25. september 2014 14:26.34

How come when some words are combined, the last letter of the first word is omitted, while other words are formed with the last letter of the first word present?

for example, Lernolibro = Textbook. Shouldn't it be spelled and pronounced Lernlibro.

When making new words, how do you know to remove or keep the last letter of the first word?

nornen (Näita profiili) 25. september 2014 14:32.58

When you have a vowels joining two words, I think it is mostly for euphonic reasons and to avoid hard to pronounce consonant clusters.

For instance Zamenhof used "postesigno" and "antauxsigno" and "supersigno". I suppose that he deemed the cluster "-sts-" in "*postsigno" hard to pronounce.

Another Zamenhovian example is "patrodomo". The word "*patrdomo" might be hard to pronounce.

Now with "lernlibro" I don't see much of a need to insert an euphonic bridge.

sergejm (Näita profiili) 25. september 2014 16:14.04

There are combinations of constonants, which cannot exist in Esperanto. I look tables of this combinatitions somethere in Internet, but I don't remember there. In the case when you by omitting vowel get illegal combination, you can't omit it. But you don't need learn the combinations: if it is not easy to pronounce the sound combination, add a vowel.
But sometimes adding of the vowel changes the sence;
unuvice in one row
unuavice in the first row
antaŭiri precide
antaŭeiri go at ahead
antaŭeniri go to ahead

bartlett22183 (Näita profiili) 25. september 2014 17:58.45

Perhaps it would be desirable if Esperanto were taught to young children around the world from an early age in immersion environments. ridulo.gif Yes, young children in immersion environments can learn and use all sorts of phonological / phonotactic contortions.

However, although there are a minority of individuals who learn E-o as relatively young children from their parents, the majority are probably after puberty, when language learning becomes much harder. I myself do not have a personal problem with many of the consonant clusters in E-o, but that is because I natively speak a (structurally) Germanic tongue in which similar clusters occur. Nevertheless, there may be many proposed (adult) learners who speak languages with other phonotactics, so I propose that we make things as easy for them as possible within the broader principles of Esperanto and avoid consonant clusters insofar as the principles allow.

nornen (Näita profiili) 25. september 2014 19:22.01

Just imagine the word petunklftizo (a very serious form of tuberculosis in clams)...

----
"ftiz/" alone is already a root which in my humble opinion is somewhat strange. Zamenhof maintained the aspiration on the first consonant (ph) but dropped the aspiration on the second one (th). Which is quite obvious because Esperanto doesn't have dental fricatives. But this left us with an onset in which the sonority hierarchy is broken.

antoniomoya (Näita profiili) 25. september 2014 20:36.31

Alkanadi:How come when some words are combined, the last letter of the first word is omitted, while other words are formed with the last letter of the first word present?
For example, Lernolibro = Textbook. Shouldn't it be spelled and pronounced Lernlibro.
When making new words, how do you know to remove or keep the last letter of the first word?
Use your common sense. It's that simple.
"Manĝotablo" or "Manĝtablo"?
"Dormoĉambro" or "dormĉambro"?
Which is easier to pronounce? That's then the solution!

Amike.

Alkanadi (Näita profiili) 28. september 2014 9:32.05

antoniomoya:
Use your common sense. It's that simple.
"Manĝotablo" or "Manĝtablo"?
"Dormoĉambro" or "dormĉambro"?
Which is easier to pronounce? That's then the solution!
Both are just as easy for me. I think that other language speakers have consonant clusters, which would make it hard for me and easy for them or vice versa.

Scii is a really hard one for me to say. I still don't say it properly. I say sit-see-ee. People will understand but it is not how it should be said. I think people in Russia or Poland find it easy to say. Just because it is easy or hard doesn't make it wrong or right. I think.

But don't trust me because I am a beginner. I don't know what I am talking about.

erinja (Näita profiili) 28. september 2014 12:43.12

If you can say "costs" or "toasts", then you can say "scii". It's only a matter of taking a consonant cluster that you're used to seeing at the end of a word and moving it to the beginning!

sudanglo (Näita profiili) 28. september 2014 12:51.56

One may give three reasons for the insertion of a grammatical ending within a compound word.

1. The most common is to make the word more easily pronounceable - lernolibro.

2. Sometimes it is necessary to avoid confusion with another word eg posteulo (successor), postulo (demand).

3. Sometimes it is used to spell out the meaning or parsing - nepagipovaj landoj, duaklasa vagono, hejmeniri, Esperanto-kongreso.

RiotNrrd (Näita profiili) 5. oktoober 2014 20:09.52

Alkanadi:...I say sit-see-ee...
Say it sss-tsee-ee.

sss = hiss like a snake. One sound, sssssssssss, except shorter.

If you have trouble with the "ts" combination, try this:

Using only the tip of your tongue to stop or start the sound, say

sss-sss-sss-sss...

and then realize that after about the second or third stop/start, you are saying the "ts" sound.

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