Postitused: 102
Keel: English
nornen (Näita profiili) 17. oktoober 2014 3:00.06
sudanglo:Hispanismo or not, Google Translate renders sen nenia timo as 'without any fear' and translates it into each of the European languages I tried with a similar meaning.Google uses English as an intermediate language when translating between other languages. That is why you get such similar results when you try "haunted house", "paramedic" or "sen nenia timo". Once google has translated "sen nenia timo" to English "without any fear", it doesn't translate "sen nenia timo" to the other languages you tried, but it translates "without any fear" instead.
Kukolo finds over 1000 hits on the net. I can't believe they all come from Spanish speakers.
Incidentally, the use of 'ajna' seems relatively recent in Esperanto to judge by the hits in the Tekstaro.
sergejm (Näita profiili) 17. oktoober 2014 5:15.31
Russian double negate:
не могу ничего делать - I cannot {do anything}
могу ничего не делать - I can {do nothing}
не могу ничего не делать - I cannot {do nothing}
(How to speak it in Esperanto, I don't know; I don't sure the English translate is correct)
PS: Google translated muŝo flugas fly flies incorrectly, but it is traslated better now.
sudanglo (Näita profiili) 18. oktoober 2014 10:35.47
Ni povas tiel diri, sen nenia troigo, ke (author appears to be Chinese)
okazas la infekto de la grandega fasciolo plej ofte subklinike, do sen neniaj eksteraj simptomoj (from Vikipedio, mother tongue of authors/editors unknown)
... la verŝajnan lokon de la ŝiprompiĝo kaj de la morto de Jean-François de La Pérouse. Li eltiris al la koralo ankrojn, ŝtonkanonojn de la ŝipo l'Astrolabe, sed sen nenia spuro de la dua ŝipo la Boussole. (from article about French Seaman in Vikipedio)
As a native English speaker (with no Spanish or Portugese) I have no difficulty in understanding the meaning as 'sen ajna', and Sergej as Russian speaker doesn't seem to either. In fact to apply some pedantic double negative logic in the interpretation seems to require some considerable mental effort.
Isn't Sen more than just ne kun?
Senlaborulo is not someone who ne kunlaboras. A striptease is a senvestiĝa danco. Is it a ne-kunvestiĝa danco?
Nornen, whether Google Translate uses English as a bridging language or not, it is not the sole mechanism. GT also allows users to actively improve on translations. So the English translation would not automatically be propagated.
A French speaker, for example, may contribute an improved translation of some German text. How 'sen nenia' got translated to 'without any' in the first place I do not know.
Fenris_kcf (Näita profiili) 18. oktoober 2014 14:05.09
Can it be that hard to accept?
The examples you mentioned are either caused by national language bias or by the fact that some people try to turn this mistake into something correct.
EDIT: Regarding "sen" as negation: Of course it is some kind of. You can always rephrase a "without"-clause with a "with no"-clause (in principle, not specifically in English), can't you?
Bemused (Näita profiili) 18. oktoober 2014 16:15.24
bartlett22183:What was written was consistent with the rules of English spelling, yet most was inconsistent with generally accepted spelling.Bemused:Note:Well, actually, no
1) What is written above is consistent with the rules of English spelling, which demonstrates how often those "rules" have exceptions
...
And, again, that is why the pronunciation and orthography of Esperanto are so estimable, even if some speakers "pull" the pronunciation somewhat.
It was meant to demonstrate how often the "rules" do not apply.
Phonetic spelling is an entirely different topic.
The spelling provided did not conform to my dialect either.
Christa627 (Näita profiili) 18. oktoober 2014 18:25.05
Fenris_kcf:PMEG: Duobla NeadoIt's been quite a while since I read PMEG, but I thought I remembered there being something about that.
Can it be that hard to accept?
Besides, -2 x -3 = +6 . So there is a logic to negatives canceling each other, outside of any English bias.
sergejm:mi ne povas ne fari - (I don't know how to speak it in English; it is normal logical double negate)Well the literal translation would be "I can't not do."
Person A: Don't do that!
Person B: I can't not do that!
But normally it would be translated "I can't help but do," or "I can't help doing." I'm not sure what the logic is behind that construction.
nornen (Näita profiili) 19. oktoober 2014 0:12.26
Christa627:Besides, -2 x -3 = +6 . So there is a logic to negatives canceling each other, outside of any English bias.No doubt that there is a logic to it, however unfortunately, languages aren't math. In linguistics, there two opposed ways of how different languages handle multiple negations.
One set uses the mathematic approach you mentioned: If there is an odd number of negations, the whole is negated; if there is an even number of negations, they cancel out each other. Apparently English is an example for this model.
Another set uses a more simple model: The more negations you throw in, the more negated the whole becomes. "Nadie dijo nada." = "Nobody said anything at all."
Both approaches are logical in their one way. If you want to stick to the mathematic metaphor, the first is multiplicative (−1 · −1 = 1), the latter is additive (−1 + −1 = −2).
nornen (Näita profiili) 19. oktoober 2014 0:22.09
Fenris_kcf:PMEG: Duobla NeadoAd 1: This whole thread is about national language bias...
Can it be that hard to accept?
The examples you mentioned are either caused by national language bias or by the fact that some people try to turn this mistake into something correct.
EDIT: Regarding "sen" as negation: Of course it is some kind of. You can always rephrase a "without"-clause with a "with no"-clause (in principle, not specifically in English), can't you?
Ad 2:
TP:“There is a knocking without,” he said.
“Without what?” said the Fool.
“Without the door, idiot.”
The Fool gave him a worried look. “A knocking without a door?” he said suspiciously. “This isn’t some kind of Zen, is it?”
tommjames (Näita profiili) 19. oktoober 2014 9:20.20
I do not take "sen nenia timo" to mean "without any fear". Esperanto is very consistent in not allowing double negatives in the way other languages do, and I do not consider it pedantic to adhear to this. People who use this expression for that meaning are making a mistake, IMO.
If I wanted to say "without any fear" I would go for any of:
Tute sen timo
Sen ajna timo
Sen ia ajn timo
Sen iom ajn da timo
nornen (Näita profiili) 21. oktoober 2014 20:27.48