Į turinį

How many speakers?

jdawdy, 2014 m. lapkritis 17 d.

Žinutės: 43

Kalba: English

jdawdy (Rodyti profilį) 2014 m. lapkritis 17 d. 14:38:49

I realize this is a quite contentious issue, with the number of 1-2 million speakers being the most often-quoted number, and about 1000 denaskuloj also frequently mentioned.
The sources do not seem to be very reliable, having been either unpublished in the academic world, or else ballpark-guess figures done by some linguists.

I have attempted to dig into US Census data, but with no luck.

Looking at some ancillary evidence though- the number of wikipedia pages in Esperanto, the traffic on Lernu.net, the very high interest in a Duolingo course- all suggest (to me at least) that the numbers of Esperanto speakers may be higher than thought. I think it's very interesting that here on Lernu, the Chinese forum is the third most active (in number of messages) after English and German, despite the lesser degree of penetration of the internet in China. Could China be an "iceberg" of Esperanto, with only the very tip of speakers visible?

altindiefanboy (Rodyti profilį) 2014 m. lapkritis 21 d. 00:50:22

jdawdy:I realize this is a quite contentious issue, with the number of 1-2 million speakers being the most often-quoted number, and about 1000 denaskuloj also frequently mentioned.
The sources do not seem to be very reliable, having been either unpublished in the academic world, or else ballpark-guess figures done by some linguists.

I have attempted to dig into US Census data, but with no luck.

Looking at some ancillary evidence though- the number of wikipedia pages in Esperanto, the traffic on Lernu.net, the very high interest in a Duolingo course- all suggest (to me at least) that the numbers of Esperanto speakers may be higher than thought. I think it's very interesting that here on Lernu, the Chinese forum is the third most active (in number of messages) after English and German, despite the lesser degree of penetration of the internet in China. Could China be an "iceberg" of Esperanto, with only the very tip of speakers visible?
Firstly, while China may have relatively low Internet penetration than the West, the sheer number of Chinese users is overwhelming, statistically.

Top Ten Internet Languages
Number of Internet Users

They may have a lower penetration rate (and rapidly growing, might I add), but the Chinese do have a massive Internet presence.

I do agree, however, that Esperanto is probably bigger than most estimates claim (though how many people are actively learning it is debatable). I also think that China has great potential for an Esperanto breeding-ground, so to speak, and with English being taught in Chinese schools, I would imagine that pronounciation and grammar wouldn't be too excrutiating (not sure about some consonant combinations and liquids, though, those can be tough as a native English speaker!). Chinese word formation is fairly similar to Esperanto from what I've read, making heavy use of grammatical particles that make up words, and other shared characteristics such as blurred distinctions between adjectives, adverbs, verbs, etc.

Maybe we can teach it to some of the Chinese rebel youth, you know, por la fina venko!

altindiefanboy (Rodyti profilį) 2014 m. lapkritis 21 d. 02:26:20

ĉevino:The chinese government should be of greater help. They do have been publishing "El Popola Chinio" from quite a long time... (and the fina venko seems to be theirs anyway...)
I think that El Popola Ĉinio is a private publication, not by the government (that's not to say anything about government expectations or restrictions on its content regardless of its origins).

Also, who are you referring to when you say "the fina venko seems to be theirs anyway"?

bartlett22183 (Rodyti profilį) 2014 m. lapkritis 21 d. 18:30:36

altindiefanboy:I do agree, however, that Esperanto is probably bigger than most estimates claim (though how many people are actively learning it is debatable).
I agree that hard numbers are difficult to come by. Who is an Esperantist? I can now probably read most of the posts in Esperanto here in lernu! to perhaps 90-95% comprehension without needing to consult the Vortaro sidebar, but if I try to compose a text, I need to do a lot of dictionary lookup. I have actually listened to almost no spoken E-o and have had literally no opportunity to speak it (not counting trying to pronounce it aloud by myself). But if I can read approximately that much of a relatively straightforward text, does that make me an Esperantist?

Miland (Rodyti profilį) 2014 m. lapkritis 21 d. 18:40:52

Here's one way of getting a rough handle on it. What proportion of Esperantists attend national congresses, and what proportion of those attend world congresses, assuming that people who go to world congresses also go to national ones (this assumption is not always true)? If, say, both fractions are 1 in 7, then since world congresses typically attract around 2000 people, that would make about 100,000 Esperantists in the world. Of course you can alter the fractions and get different answers.

robbkvasnak (Rodyti profilį) 2014 m. lapkritis 21 d. 18:43:44

bartlett22183:
altindiefanboy:I do agree, however, that Esperanto is probably bigger than most estimates claim (though how many people are actively learning it is debatable).
I agree that hard numbers are difficult to come by. Who is an Esperantist? I can now probably read most of the posts in Esperanto here in lernu! to perhaps 90-95% comprehension without needing to consult the Vortaro sidebar, but if I try to compose a text, I need to do a lot of dictionary lookup. I have actually listened to almost no spoken E-o and have had literally no opportunity to speak it (not counting trying to pronounce it aloud by myself). But if I can read approximately that much of a relatively straightforward text, does that make me an Esperantist?
I teach English to speakers of other languages at college here in Florida. Most of my students have the same experience with English as bartlett has with Esperanto. Also, the number of English speakers in the world is a matter of conjecture. Many people say that they speak English - I have experienced this here in South Florida and while traveling around the world. The veracity of that statement is relative, just as big and little are relative.
A propos, a funny anecdote: I was in Brazil and a man saw my t-shirt with Esperanto on it. He laughed and told me that English is much better (sic). So I asked him if he spoke English. He said: "Wrist watch". I was puzzled and he pointed to his watch. I then asked him what time it was (in English) but he did not understand me. I was careful to use my ESOL-teacher's English, pronouncing slowly and completely but no matter what else I asked, he always responded "wrist watch". So many people who say that they speak English as like our "bonan tagon" Esperantists. Only that once they come here to study, they spend 2-3 years in our English courses in order to get up to speed to take undergrad courses at college.

se (Rodyti profilį) 2014 m. lapkritis 22 d. 12:54:12

Can anyone give the number of chess players, basketball players in the world ?

The number of English language speakers on Wikipedia is mainly based on the education system in the country.

Do you think the Thai can speak English even after 12 years of learning English ? It goes with Chinese too.

If you can read Chinese, this report tells you the shocking number of Chinese who, after 12 years of learning English, can achieve fluency.

By conspiracy theory, many countries teach English are just pleasing the USA and wasting the money from tax payers.

How about the number of Esperanto speakers, whether they really speak or use it in Hungary.
Before students get their degree, they must pass an intermediate level language exam in the foreign language of their choice. English and German are the most popular. The number of Spanish-learners has been growing in the last few years.[quoteation needed] Recently a high number of students chose Esperanto and Romani languages.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Hungary#...

If Esperanto is listed in the intangible cultural heritage of Poland and Poland does not amend the rule to teach Esperanto in the country, or even make it as a second language, their treasures, isn't it. Esperanto would not go too far.

lagtendisto (Rodyti profilį) 2014 m. lapkritis 22 d. 14:02:08

How many speakers?
In my opinion, not more than 20,000 worldwide.

Nephihaha (Rodyti profilį) 2014 m. lapkritis 22 d. 15:22:55

There is no way of calculating the actual number of Esperanto speakers. All that can be done is to calculate a base figure... i.e. that there are more than "X" Esperanto speakers.

I suspect there is probably an overlap between those who declare themselves Esperantists on censuses and those who attended conventions etc.

Quite a few people have learnt Esperanto to some degree, but it does seem to be a bit out of fashion. When I was growing up, I heard about it far more than nowadays.

I wonder what percentage of Esperantists attend the UKs each year. Attendance at those is in the low thousands.

"The number of English language speakers on Wikipedia is mainly based on the education system in the country."

The problem here is the same as with Esperanto. At least a billion speak English. But it depends on how well, you define being able to speak it. Most young Europeans have some knowledge of it. Many traders round the world do, but not well. Most Japanese studied it in school, but can't speak it well to any degree.

The number of people who speak English fluently is probably around 500 million. The number who speak it badly, or know a few working phrases is probably vast.

bartlett22183 (Rodyti profilį) 2014 m. lapkritis 22 d. 18:59:39

Again, it becomes a matter of what we mean to "speak" (or even know) a language. For instance, I am an educated native speaker of General American dialect of English. Some years ago a nice, middle-aged gentlemen and I took shelter together from a torrential downpour here in an American city. He said he was from India, although his particular country of origin is not relevant. His command of English vocabulary and syntax was actually quite good, but his pronunciation was such that I could barely understand him only with difficulty. We were able to have something of a polite, small talk, semi-conversation, but did we both "speak English"? Well, enough that we could get along for minor matters.

It may be something similar with Esperanto (or any other constructed auxiliary language). If I can read most of a (relatively simple) text needing only a small amount of dictionary lookup but can write it only with a lot of lookup and have never even had the opportunity to try to converse in it, do I really "speak" Esperanto?

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