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When do you think?

sudanglo,2014年12月12日の

メッセージ: 11

言語: English

sudanglo (プロフィールを表示) 2014年12月12日 20:35:41

What do you want me to do? (kion vi volas, ke mi faru?). This is a question about what is wanted

When did you know he was lying? (kiam vi eksciis, ke li mensogas). This is a question about when you knew, not about when he lied.

When did you think he would come? - this will be treated by a native speaker of English as a question about the time of his arrival, not about the time that the addressee had a thought. 'The day after tomorrow' is a natural answer.

But is 'Kiam vi pensis, ke li venos' unambiguous in Esperanto?

Rugxdoma (プロフィールを表示) 2014年12月12日 22:49:59

sudanglo:What do you want me to do? (kion vi volas, ke mi faru?). This is a question about what is wanted

When did you know he was lying? (kiam vi eksciis, ke li mensogas). This is a question about when you knew, not about when he lied.

When did you think he would come? - this will be treated by a native speaker of English as a question about the time of his arrival, not about the time that the addressee had a thought. 'The day after tomorrow' is a natural answer.

But is 'Kiam vi pensis, ke li venos' unambiguous in Esperanto?
I think the comma is what makes it unambiguous. "Kiam" belongs to the verb "pensis". If it had been supposed to belong to "venos", then there should have been doube commas, making "vi pensis" parenthetical. And I don't think that is common in Esperanto. And using no commas, like in English, doesn't seem to be recommended.

noelekim (プロフィールを表示) 2014年12月14日 2:58:19

sudanglo:
... is 'Kiam vi pensis, ke li venos' unambiguous in Esperanto?
As a native English speaker, I can't be sure if that clearly conveys a question about "when he will arrive" to alilingvanoj, but to be on the safe side, I would ask instead: Vi supozis ke li venos je kioma horo?

noelekim (プロフィールを表示) 2014年12月14日 3:00:17

sudanglo:
... is 'Kiam vi pensis, ke li venos' unambiguous in Esperanto?
As a native English speaker, I can't be sure if that clearly conveys a question about "when he will arrive" to alilingvanoj, but to be on the safe side, I would ask instead: Vi supozis ke li venos je kioma horo?

nornen (プロフィールを表示) 2014年12月14日 3:58:22

sudanglo:But is 'Kiam vi pensis, ke li venos' unambiguous in Esperanto?
I would say yes. It inquires about the point in time, when the the thinking about his future arrival took place.
I don't want to delve into "grammaticisms", as I know that you have a certain amount of contempt against analytic inspection of languages, but it has to do which parts of a phrase can be pulled out of it in English, and which can be pulled out in Esperanto.

marbuljon (プロフィールを表示) 2014年12月14日 9:56:36

I thought pensi was "think" as in "think mental thoughts to oneself", and that sort of think that you mean would be more like "suppose, assume". Am I wrong...?

sudanglo (プロフィールを表示) 2014年12月14日 10:18:24

Kara Nornen, I have no distaste for the 'analytic inspection of languages', just for arcane obscurantism and fanciful armchair speculation. But that's a whole different topic.

Let me ask you this. In the sentences below, does the kiam relate to veni in one case and to pensi in the other case?

Kiam vi pensas (supozas) ke li venos?
Kiam vi pensis ke li venos?

Marbuljon, the issue is the same if one substitutes kredi/opinii/supozi for pensi

Kirilo81 (プロフィールを表示) 2014年12月14日 13:38:15

For my understanding in both cases kiam asks for the time of pensi, what is not the intended meaning. I go with nornen here.

Tempodivalse (プロフィールを表示) 2014年12月14日 16:59:42

I would have not even considered Kiam vi pensis, ke li venos if I wanted to express When did you think he would come? It seems to be a somewhat idiomatic anglaĵo. I would automatically interpret "kiam" to belong to "pensis",that is, a question about the time of the thought. In Russian, at least, this is the way this sentence would be parsed. There would be no reason for me to attach "kiam" to "venos".

I think the idiomatic nature of this English phrase becomes apparent if one substitutes "think" with some other verb and tries to parse the sentence in the same way. For instance, the sentence When did you realise he would come? is a question about the time of the realisation, not about the time he would come (as in You realised that he would come when?). It's only with "think" (and maybe a few other specific verbs) that we would connect the initial "when" to the second verb.

Vi pensis, ke li venos kiam? strikes me as the simplest and least ambiguous way to put the question.

nornen (プロフィールを表示) 2014年12月16日 2:38:05

sudanglo:Let me ask you this. In the sentences below, does the kiam relate to veni in one case and to pensi in the other case?

Kiam vi pensas (supozas) ke li venos?
Kiam vi pensis ke li venos?
To answer your question: I don't know where the kiam "relates" to, as I am only a simple user of this language. However, in both cases my interpretation would be that kiam "relates" to pensa/is.

Kiam vi pensas, ke li venos? - Answer: Mi pensas, ke li venos, ĉiam, kiam li diras, ke li venos. Ĉar mi kredas ĉiun ajnaĵon, kiun li diras.

Kiam vi pensis, ke li venos? - Answer: Mi pensis hieraŭ, ke li venos, tamen hodiaŭ mi eksciis, ke li ne venos.

The question Kiam li venos viaopinie/viascie? is quite another cup of tea.

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