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Where did the actress...?

by sudanglo, December 26, 2014

Messages: 11

Language: English

sudanglo (User's profile) December 26, 2014, 12:09:17 PM

'Where did the actress say that the Bishop had to get off the train to meet her?'

Your suggestions please for this in Esperanto.

If you are a native speaker of another language than English I would also like to hear how you would deal with this in your mother tongue, with literal transcription in Esperanto.

Rujo (User's profile) December 26, 2014, 12:36:29 PM

sudanglo:'Where did the actress say that the Bishop had to get off the train to meet her?'
Onde foi que a atriz disse que o bispo teria de sair do trem para encontrá-la? (laŭlitere)
Kie la aktorino diris ke la episkopo devus eliri el la trajno por renkonti ŝin? (laulitere)

Mustelvulpo (User's profile) December 26, 2014, 2:08:10 PM

I see the ambiguity in the wording of the sentence in English. It could mean- "According to the actress, in what location was the bishop to leave the train to meet her?" or it could also mean "Where was the actress when she made the statement that the bishop had to get off the train to meet her?"

Laŭ la akotorino, en kiu loko devus la episkopo eliri el la trajno por renkonti ŝin?

Kie estis la aktorino kiam ŝi diris ke la episkopo devus eliri el la trajno por renkonti ŝin?

Rugxdoma (User's profile) December 26, 2014, 2:43:43 PM

sudanglo:'Where did the actress say that the Bishop had to get off the train to meet her?'

Your suggestions please for this in Esperanto.

If you are a native speaker of another language than English I would also like to hear how you would deal with this in your mother tongue, with literal transcription in Esperanto.
Laŭ la aktorino, kie devus la episkopo eliri el la trajno por renkonti ŝin?

The Swedish expression is formed exactly like the English one. It is such a common pattern that it only theoretically can be misunderstood.

dbob (User's profile) December 26, 2014, 3:19:02 PM

I wonder if my following reflection is right in Esperanto:

1 Kie la aktorino diris, ke la episkopo devus eliri el la trajno por renkonti ŝin?
1 Kie estis la aktorino, kiam ŝi diris, ke la episkopo devus eliri el la trajno por renkonti ŝin?

2 Kien, la aktorino diris, la episkopo devus eliri el la trajno por renkonti ŝin?
2 Laŭ la aktorino, en kiu loko devus la episkopo eliri el la trajno por renkonti ŝin?

3 Kie, la aktorino diris, ke la episkopo devus eliri el la trajno por renkonti ŝin?
3 Laŭ la aktorino, en kiu loko devus la episkopo eliri el la trajno por renkonti ŝin?

vikungen (User's profile) December 26, 2014, 7:17:15 PM

sudanglo:'Where did the actress say that the Bishop had to get off the train to meet her?'

If you are a native speaker of another language than English I would also like to hear how you would deal with this in your mother tongue, with literal transcription in Esperanto.
NO: Hvor sa skuespillerinnen at biskopen måtte gå av toget for å møte henne?
Literal:
EO: Kie diris la aktorino ke la episkopo devis marŝi de la trajno por renkonti ŝin?

nornen (User's profile) December 26, 2014, 10:06:32 PM

In German:
Was hat die Schauspielerin gesagt, wo der Bischoff aussteigen müsste (müsse, muss) um sie zu treffen?
Word-by-word:
Kion diris la aktorino, kie la episkopo eltrajniĝi devus (devus, devas) por ŝin renkonti?

Vidu ankaŭ.

Apparently the English pattern is also possible when one carefully pronounces the pauses. But I wouldn't bet on that with all speakers.

The "was/wo", "was/wer", "was/warum", "was/any-question-word" etc pattern is common in German:
Was meinst du, wer kommt?
Kion vi opinias, kiu venas?
Who do you think will come?

Was denkst du, warum er das getan hat?
Kion vi pensas, kial li faris tion?
Why do you think he did that?

Was hast du gesagt, woran er gestorben ist?
Kion vi diris, je kio li mortis?
What did you say he died of?

If I wanted to mimick the German way in Esperanto, I would say something like:

Interpretation 1: Kion diris la aktorino pri kie devus eltrajniĝi la episkopo por renkonti ŝin? (kie eltrajniĝi)
Interpretatino 2: Kie diris la aktorino, ke la episkopo devus eltrajniĝi por renkonti ŝin? (kie diri)

Tempodivalse (User's profile) December 26, 2014, 10:59:41 PM

'Where did the actress say that the Bishop had to get off the train to meet her?'
I instinctively wanted to split this into two sentences when translating it into Russian, along the lines of: "What did the actress say? Where did the Bishop have to ..." This sounds a bit more natural.

My slightly rusty ear isn't sure what the best word order here would be if you wanted to preserve the single sentence (Russian word order is highly flexible), but this is a possible translation:

Russian: Что сказала актриса о том, куда епископ должен был высадиться из поезда, чтобы её встретить?
Translit: Shto skazala aktrisa o tom, kuda episkop dolzhen byl vysadit'sja iz pojezda, chtoby ejo vstretit'?
Literal: Kion diris (la) aktorino pri tio, kien (la) episkopo devis eliri el (la) vagonaro, por ŝin renkonti?

But the English word order and parsing is rather ugly here (well, unusual). Speakers of most languages (including Esperanto) will want to attach "where" to the verb "say", rather than to "get off", simply because of the proximity to the former.

I think this is the clearest way to put it in Esperanto:

"Laŭ la aktorino, kien devis la episkopo eliri el la vagonaro por renkonti ŝin?"

sudanglo (User's profile) December 27, 2014, 11:33:19 AM

These two-clause 'Wh-word ... that' questions are subject to two interpretations, theoretically. But in practice, the context (kunteksto and konteksto) will normally force the meaning.

Where did the ticket collector say that we had to change trains is never going to be a question about the location of the ticket collector.

And Where does it say that we have to change trains will be answered by something like in the small print at the bottom.

Also from the answers so far given, it looks as though the English structure, with its potential ambiguity, is known in other languages.

Now in Esperanto you could make it explicit in a number of ways as to whether the K-word applies to the main verb or to the subclause.

Kion ŝi diris pri kie li elvagoniĝu?
Laŭ ŝi, kie li elvagoniĝu?
Ŝi diris, ke li elvagoniĝu kie?

But my suspicion is that also in Esperanto the simple Kie ŝi diris, ke li elvagoniĝu will be used leaving it to context to settle the meaning.

Is this commented upon in any grammar text that you know?

sudanglo (User's profile) December 27, 2014, 12:08:00 PM

I may be being misled here but the use of laŭ seems to me to introduce a tentative nuance. So that Laŭ la aktorino opens up the possibility of her being mistaken or there being room for disagreement.

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