kaŝesperanto:I suppose you should define what you mean by inequality.

Various kinds, social, economic, political, whatever. In the Esperanto context it's a reference to the hegemony and dominance of the Anglosphere, and the Esperanto movement's attempt to place everyone on an equal footing.

kaŝesperanto:Your claim is purely speculative, there are too many confounding variables to say anything meaningful.

Hmm, I'm not so sure nothing meaningful can be said. But I agree the "claim" is speculative - not that there's anything wrong with that mind you! It was I believe you who initially pointed out the correlation between education and tendency to lean to the left - perhaps you'd like to explain where you were going with that if it wasn't just a random comment unrelated to sudanglo's question?

tommjames:

kaŝesperanto:I suppose you should define what you mean by inequality.

Various kinds, social, economic, political, whatever. In the Esperanto context it's a reference to the hegemony and dominance of the Anglosphere, and the Esperanto movement's attempt to place everyone on an equal footing.

kaŝesperanto:Your claim is purely speculative, there are too many confounding variables to say anything meaningful.

Hmm, I'm not so sure nothing meaningful can be said. But I agree the "claim" is speculative - not that there's anything wrong with that mind you! It was I believe you who initially pointed out the correlation between education and tendency to lean to the left - perhaps you'd like to explain where you were going with that if it wasn't just a random comment unrelated to sudanglo's question?

You're right that I did bring it up, but I did not make any link between education and intelligence. "Education" is more common now that it is expected and required in the first world to get a decent paying job. There are plenty of "basket weaving" degrees (no idea who came up with that, but it's my favorite) that just about anyone can get. It is far easier to get a "liberal arts" degree than a science/engineering/mathematics degree. Don't get me wrong; I think those types of classes are absolutely crucial to a good education, but they make you more educated, not smarter.

IMHO "intelligent" people stay out of politics when they can. Apparently I'm not very intelligent.

kaŝperanto:

tommjames:

kaŝesperanto:right-wingers would see 100% capitalist free market/laissez faire systems as treating everyone equally

Maybe so, but this preposterous idea keeps the right in a contented state of acceptance about the things that really do cause inequality, so it amounts to the same thing I think.

As for affirmative action, the ultimate aim there is still to reduce inequalities. It's fighting fire with fire perhaps but the intention is surely what counts.

I suppose you should define what you mean by inequality. Just because I have more money or whatever than you doesn't mean there's an inequality if we both have the same chances (not saying this is the case). Be careful: "the ends justify the means" has certainly caused its share of horrors in history. Also, is it wrong to have some inequality if it makes everyone better off than pure equality? To some extent I say it isn't. While we may have the "1% problem", we also have incredibly advanced technology that very well may not exist without the environment that created this problem. This is a somewhat utilitarian viewpoint, which I dislike philosophically, but it is supportable. I would rather support something like basic income over welfare, as it is more equal and possibly less expensive.

It doesn't bother me that there are people in this country who are richer than me. And if they forever stay richer than me, how does than impact my life? Only in the fact that rich people tend to like to buy new clothes because they're tired of the ones they have. So they give perfectly good clothes to Goodwill or Arc, and buy new ones. Then I go to Goodwill or Arc and buy nice clothes for a few bucks. I get clothes, the rich people get clothes, the thrift store gets money, the clothing manufacturers get money, and we all live happily ever after.

If Mr. B. is rich enough to start his own bakery, and makes money from it, what is the result of that? That he hires Mr. S. and Miss P., and that gives them a way to provide for themselves and/or their families; then Mr. B gets enough money to expand his business, and then hires Mr. H. and Mrs. A; and see! Mr. B., Mr. S., Miss P., Mr. H., and Mrs. A. all make a living, and the community gets cakes and pastries. And then Mr. H.'s wife, who manages Mr. H.'s finances, saves up enough to start a small business from home, and it grows little by little, and the H. family gets more income, and Mrs. H.'s customers get whatever it is she's selling. And then, who knows? Maybe Mrs. H.'s business will grow to the point that the H. family becomes well-to-do, and Mrs. H. can hire people to help with the business, and then...

Of course, it is also a possibility that Mrs. H.'s business will not get anywhere, and they'll just lose money on it. That is how it is in this economic system; there are risks and rewards.

All this is not mere speculation, it is life as I see it work out in my own experience.

kaŝesperanto:I did not make any link between education and intelligence

I didn't mean to suggest that you did, and I don't make that link either. I meant that the tendency to lean leftwards the more educated you are seemed to be part of your answer to sudanglo's question about why Esperanto attracts lefties.

kaŝesperanto:IMHO "intelligent" people stay out of politics when they can.

That certainly seems to be the case, looking at the current state of politics in the UK at least.

[continued from last post]

I am not saying that the capitalist system is perfect; it is made and worked by humans, and humans aren't perfect. But I am saying that it works, and in many ways works better than some other systems.

Just like Esperanto isn't a perfect language, but it works, and in many ways works better than some other languages.

kaŝperanto:IMHO "intelligent" people stay out of politics when they can. Apparently I'm not very intelligent.

Lol; I try to stay out of politics, but sometimes I can't help myself . And then I regret it later when I'm stuck in an endless boring argument where people sling mud at each other and accomplish nothing!

And, as tommjames seems to be hinting at, it does seem that kaŝperanto's statement is true in the sense of being a politician as well as in the sense of arguing about politics! Things sure have changed since George Washington's time...

tommjames:

kaŝesperanto:I did not make any link between education and intelligence

I didn't mean to suggest that you did, and I don't make that link either. I meant that the tendency to lean leftwards the more educated you are seemed to be part of your answer to sudanglo's question about why Esperanto attracts lefties.

kaŝesperanto:IMHO "intelligent" people stay out of politics when they can.

That certainly seems to be the case, looking at the current state of politics in the UK at least.

You did imply a link, albeit indirectly (at least that was my interpretation):

tommjames:
Also the fact that people of the left tend to be more intelligent and educated (objectively true, no point disputing it) may be part of it.

There are numerous examples of stupidity in both sides. I just did some looking, and as of 2013 in 34 US states it pays more to be on welfare than to hold a full time minimum wage job. People in some states make more (since welfare is untaxed) than I do as an engineer because of where I live (the Midwest). Last time I checked I paid ~30% of my check to taxes, mostly into medical/retirement systems that will fail before my generation will get to see any benefits from them.
Considering some locations (Hawaii, most major cities) are significantly nicer places to live, I might have to change to an exciting career in joblessness.

On the other side, CEOs and other people making mega bonuses and other BS while their employees do not is quite stupid. Punishment for financial crime is laughable.

Christa627:[continued from last post]

I am not saying that the capitalist system is perfect; it is made and worked by humans, and humans aren't perfect. But I am saying that it works, and in many ways works better than some other systems.

Just like Esperanto isn't a perfect language, but it works, and in many ways works better than some other languages.

kaŝperanto:IMHO "intelligent" people stay out of politics when they can. Apparently I'm not very intelligent.

Lol; I try to stay out of politics, but sometimes I can't help myself . And then I regret it later when I'm stuck in an endless boring argument where people sling mud at each other and accomplish nothing!

And, as tommjames seems to be hinting at, it does seem that kaŝperanto's statement is true in the sense of being a politician as well as in the sense of arguing about politics! Things sure have changed since George Washington's time...

Indeed, it's too bad we couldn't heed Wahington's "no parties" warning.

I suppose my posts do seem very contradictory in hindsight, but I was going off my apparently incorrect interpretation of tommjames' statement about intelligence and education.

sudanglo:Yet another leftie supporter of Esperanto. Why does the movement attract so many lefties? What do we need to do to attract more from the right.

LOL! I think you're having a Prince Philip moment there i.e. daring to say what others are thinking.

I'm returning to Esperanto after decades away. I was discouraged by two things viz. a lack of literature in Esperanto on topics that interest me, and the amount of left-wing, "one-worldists" who seemed to take it for granted that everyone in the Esperanto movement shared their opinions. (I generalise, I know, but when you're sick of a thing... you understand, I'm sure.) Then, of course, there were the folk on the religious fringes... I'm not an atheist but I have to say it was a joy to meet atheists capable of arguing syllogistically, who had respect for human reason.

tommjames:
Also the fact that people of the left tend to be more intelligent and educated (objectively true, no point disputing it) may be part of it.

Independently verifiable evidence please.
Claiming that something is so does not make it so.
Claiming that something is "objectively true" immediately raises the question "Where is your objective evidence?".

Nephihaha:Is there such a thing as leftism in the USA? Everything they seem to think is left wing is neoliberal!

Basically, yeah. I'm fairly left-anarchist-leaning, but "left-wing" in the US basically means "Democrat", though I'd hardly call the Democrats left-wing. Relatively, maybe, but we have essentially no left-wing politics whatsoever other than one supposedly socialist congressman.