Bemused:Claiming that something is so does not make it so.

Stating the blindingly obvious there but yes, you are correct. Well done!

Bemused:Independently verifiable evidence please.

There would be no point getting into that, since a) I'm not particularly interested in convincing you of this fact, b) the inevitable "that doesn't prove anything" and "the data is wrong" dispute would erupt, which would be incredibly boring, and c) if you're really interested in the evidence you're quite capable of finding it yourself fairly easily.

By the way I'm not a "leftie" myself, and I generally avoid placing myself on the left-right continuum as my views cut across the whole spectrum. But the superior intelligence and education (note I do not say they imply each other) of the left is just a reality. This should not be taken personally or as an affront to any particular group. It is just a simple fact - the only interesting question is why it is so, not whether it is so.

tommjames: the superior intelligence and education (note I do not say they imply each other) of the left is just a reality. This should not be taken personally or as an affront to any particular group. It is just a simple fact - the only interesting question is why it is so, not whether it is so.

Again presenting opinion as fact.
Repeating the same non substantiated claim does not increase the veracity of that claim.
I have no particular interest in anyones politics, however I do object to attempts to subvert clear thinking.
There is a rather less polite way of putting this. "Put up or shut up."

Bemused:Repeating the same non substantiated claim does not increase the veracity of that claim.

Yes, and stating the obvious repeatedly does not gain you ground in a debate.

Bemused:There is a rather less polite way of putting this. "Put up or shut up."

And there's a rather less polite way to respond: "On your bike!"

If you're interested in the evidence you'll seek it yourself and scrutinize it carefully, using all your powers of clear thinking. You don't need me to spoon feed it to you.

Also the fact that people of the Left tend to be more intelligent and educated (objectively true, no point disputing it) may be part of it.

If all Lefties are tall, it does not follow that all tall people are Lefties.

Your argument Tom is that Esperanto is taken up by the the more intelligent and better educated (plausible), so it not surprising to find a predominance of Lefties among Esperantists.

But to make that argument work it has to be true not that the Left tend to be more intelligent and better educated, but that the more intelligent and better educated tend to be Lefties.

So actually, it doesn't matter if it is true or not what you assert about the Left.

Edit: Excuse me if I have used 'all my powers of clear thinking'.

But to return to the point I was trying to make - it is an impediment to the wider acceptance of Esperanto if its speakers tend to be a cosy coterie of fellow-travellers.

Equally, it is regrettable if there is a predominance of stranguloj in the Movement, or any marginal group - which is not to imply that Lefties are stranguloj or marginal.

To be truly successful Esperanto has to appeal to everybody who might need to communicate with a speaker of another language than their own.

In essence the problem is considerably multiplying the number of speakers, or at least the number of people who have a sufficient knowledge of the language for it to be practically useful.

I don't see that happening all the time it is attracting only people of a certain disposition.

sudanglo:But to make that argument work it has to be true not that the Left tend to be more intelligent and better educated, but that the more intelligent and better educated tend to be Lefties.

Fine by me - both are true

sudanglo:Yet another leftie supporter of Esperanto. Why does the movement attract so many lefties? What do we need to do to attract more from the right.

I'm going to go out on a limb here by saying this, but what I think might be going on is that a lot of left-wingers or "liberals" tend to be very vocal and incredibly intolerant. I've actually submitted a post to a politically-oriented Esperanto forum before only to have it summarily dismissed without comment and not released to the list. Usually, anything less than 100% endorsement of their views invites a volley of disrespect and intolerant vitriol from left-wingers, which makes right-wingers just roll their eyes and dismiss them as ranting idiots. It's not that they're all stupid, but as a whole, they seem top-heavy in such people, thus they're not taken seriously--but this creates a false front: to newcomers to a movement like Esperanto, it looks like the leftist views are out in the forefront and represent the movement--which is clearly not the case.

A lot of right-wingers and "conservatives" (such as myself) neither have the time, the patience, nor the inclination to constantly debate or defend against goofy attacks, so we tend to just ignore them and move on. Again, that creates a false appearance that the biggest loud-mouths are steering the ideology--but just look at how many right-wingers there are on this very forum. A lot of Esperantists are religious, conservative, educated, and patriotic...and many of them are far too involved with other things they find more interesting than engaging in lengthy spitting matches.

sudanglo:But to return to the point I was trying to make - it is an impediment to the wider acceptance of Esperanto if its speakers tend to be a cosy coterie of fellow-travellers.

Equally, it is regrettable if there is a predominance of stranguloj in the Movement, or any marginal group - which is not to imply that Lefties are stranguloj or marginal.

To be truly successful Esperanto has to appeal to everybody who might need to communicate with a speaker of another language than their own.

In essence the problem is considerably multiplying the number of speakers, or at least the number of people who have a sufficient knowledge of the language for it to be practically useful.

I don't see that happening all the time it is attracting only people of a certain disposition.

I consider this a remarkably prescient statement. An auxiliary language could be of use to everyone, right, left, up, down, in, out, and everything in between. Unfortunately, if most of the users and advocates of Esperanto (or any other constructed auxiliary language) tend to the left, others will not take it seriously, even may oppose it. Leftist Esperantists dare not associate the language with their particular biases; otherwise, the dream of Z will never succeed. Esperantujo desperately needs rightists as well as leftists (and everybody else) in order to succeed, no matter how much the leftists may not like it.

Polaris:I'm going to go out on a limb here by saying this, but what I think might be going on is that a lot of left-wingers or "liberals" tend to be very vocal and incredibly intolerant. [...] Usually, anything less than 100% endorsement of their views invites a volley of disrespect and intolerant vitriol from left-wingers, which makes right-wingers just roll their eyes and dismiss them as ranting idiots. It's not that they're all stupid, but as a whole, they seem top-heavy in such people, thus they're not taken seriously--but this creates a false front: to newcomers to a movement like Esperanto, it looks like the leftist views are out in the forefront and represent the movement--which is clearly not the case.

A lot of right-wingers and "conservatives" (such as myself) neither have the time, the patience, nor the inclination to constantly debate or defend against goofy attacks, so we tend to just ignore them and move on. Again, that creates a false appearance that the biggest loud-mouths are steering the ideology--but just look at how many right-wingers there are on this very forum. A lot of Esperantists are religious, conservative, educated, and patriotic...and many of them are far too involved with other things they find more interesting than engaging in lengthy spitting matches.

+1 I often avoid political discussions on the internet because they don't really interest me and I have better things to do. But, now I wonder, does this indicate that Leftists don't have anything better to do?

Polaris:
I'm going to go out on a limb here by saying this, but what I think might be going on is that a lot of left-wingers or "liberals" tend to be very vocal and incredibly intolerant. I've actually submitted a post to a politically-oriented Esperanto forum before only to have it summarily dismissed without comment and not released to the list. Usually, anything less than 100% endorsement of their views invites a volley of disrespect and intolerant vitriol from left-wingers, which makes right-wingers just roll their eyes and dismiss them as ranting idiots. It's not that they're all stupid, but as a whole, they seem top-heavy in such people, thus they're not taken seriously--but this creates a false front: to newcomers to a movement like Esperanto, it looks like the leftist views are out in the forefront and represent the movement--which is clearly not the case.

A lot of right-wingers and "conservatives" (such as myself) neither have the time, the patience, nor the inclination to constantly debate or defend against goofy attacks, so we tend to just ignore them and move on. Again, that creates a false appearance that the biggest loud-mouths are steering the ideology--but just look at how many right-wingers there are on this very forum. A lot of Esperantists are religious, conservative, educated, and patriotic...and many of them are far too involved with other things they find more interesting than engaging in lengthy spitting matches.

Well said! A little dose of reality is good.