tommjames:

sudanglo:Why does the movement attract so many lefties?

Because the right is happy with inequality, whereas the left opposes it. Juxtapose that fact with the "interna ideo" of Esperanto and at least part of the reason should be fairly obvious.

Also the fact that people of the left tend to be more intelligent and educated (objectively true, no point disputing it) may be part of it.

I don't actually think intelligence and education neither any "happieness with inequality" are finally the point here.

To me it boils down to the point that "lefties" are the ones, who want to "change the world", who want to discuss and try out new ways of living, new views on gender and things like that. Not to forget veganism. Esperantujo turns out to be a very good platform for that so that many "leftie" ideas are remarkably present in the movement. So conservatives who prefer to stick to their traditional way of life, might feel uncomfortable in Esperantujo where people live or discuss about transgendrism, polyamory, veganism and other "leftie" stuff.

Just my perception.

To me it boils down to the point that "lefties" are the ones, who want to "change the world", who want to discuss and try out new ways of living, new views on gender and things like that. Not to forget veganism. Esperantujo turns out to be a very good platform for that so that many "leftie" ideas are remarkably present in the movement.

But a predominance of people with 'revolutionary ideas' is very unfortunate.

Esperanto is just a language. It can't go mainstream , which is essential to its raison d'être, if Esperantujo is stuffed with such people, and therefore 'scary' for people of conventional views.

(Incidentally I'm not so sure that the defining characteristic of the lefties is that they want to change the world, to me their essential mind set is rather a passionate horror of discrimination.)

The battle to be won is to convince the world that the idea of a constructed, purpose-built lingua franca is a rational, practical solution. It is obviously difficult to achieve this, to promote the idea that this is not weird, if most of the speakers of the language are weird.

sudanglo:The battle to be won is to convince the world that the idea of a constructed, purpose-built lingua franca is a rational, practical solution. It is obviously difficult to achieve this, to promote the idea that this is not weird, if most of the speakers of the language are weird.

I get your point. These lefties have hijacked our language and turned it into a playground for their weird ideas and thus are making it unattractive for mainstream people.

What makes it difficult for you is, that the so called lefties actually have a real life use case for Esperanto. They actually use it to get in touch with other weird people to learn from each other develop their 'revolutionary ideas'. That is a use case that you can actually show: "Look how many cool [you would say "weird"] people I met by Esperanto." Opposed to that the use case of conservertive Esperantists remains somewhat abstract. "A constructed, purpose-built lingua franca." Yes. And? "A rational, practical solution." To which problem?

Personally I know quite some Esperanto speakers whom I'd lable "conservative" who are yet attracted to the diversity that Esperanto is offering them and enjoy getting in touch with people who have different ideas. Probably the whole idea of a constructed lingua franca who is not disturbing its speakers by weird ideas of other speakers is an illusion. We all have to deal with the fact, that there are weird people in the Esperanto movement.

Why does the movement attract so many lefties?

Right wing ideology: Everyone should work hard and be responsible for themselves. The cream will rise to the top. Being treated equally is more important than being equal.

Left wing ideology: Everyone should stick together and be responsible for each other. The strong should care for the weak. Being equal is more important than being treated equally.

Isn't it obvious why Left wingers want to be in the Esperanto movement. Think about the symbol of many left wing movements. It is a fist. Why? Because, each finger is weak on its own, but when combined together it makes a mighty fist. The left is all about bringing people together. A language that unites the world would naturally appeal to those who want equality.

Unless you are trying to improve your resume, then you are most likely a left winger.

PS. Imagine trying to convince the Fox News hosts to learn Esperanto so that they can chat effectively with Mexicans, Arabs, Iranians, Chinese, and Russians.

Alkanadi:

Why does the movement attract so many lefties?

Right wing ideology: Everyone should work hard and be responsible for themselves. The cream will rise to the top. Being treated equally is more important than being equal.

Left wing ideology: Everyone should stick together and be responsible for each other. The strong should care for the weak. Being equal is more important than being treated equally.

Isn't it obvious why Left wingers want to be in the Esperanto movement. Think about the symbol of many left wing movements. It is a fist. Why? Because, each finger is weak on its own, but when combined together it makes a mighty fist. The left is all about bringing people together. A language that unites the world would naturally appeal to those who want equality.

Unless you are trying to improve your resume, then you are most likely a left winger.

PS. Imagine trying to convince the Fox News hosts to learn Esperanto so that they can chat effectively with Mexicans, Arabs, Iranians, Chinese, and Russians.

That is a very fitting and brief definition of the issue at hand. I especially like that you can use "equal" to define both fundamental viewpoints.

One thing I notice is that right wing ideology is contrary to the use of Esperanto as an IAL when the market has determined that English will serve this purpose. It would be a very "socialist" move to force the transition in world governments and corporate activity to the use of Esperanto. This natural selection of sorts is a primary tenet of right wing thought. Esperanto had its fair shot, and the invisible hand has made its decision. This unfortunately ignores the much larger influence of nationalist politics in preventing Esperanto from being used in areas where it is objectively the best solution to the language problem.

Esperanto's own goals are far more in line with leftist thought, therefore more leftists will learn it and use it to promote their goals. Just like evangelical religious movements you can't expect someone who desires what they perceive as a positive change to keep their mouth shut about it.

johmue:

sudanglo:The battle to be won is to convince the world that the idea of a constructed, purpose-built lingua franca is a rational, practical solution. It is obviously difficult to achieve this, to promote the idea that this is not weird, if most of the speakers of the language are weird.

I get your point. These lefties have hijacked our language and turned it into a playground for their weird ideas and thus are making it unattractive for mainstream people.

What makes it difficult for you is, that the so called lefties actually have a real life use case for Esperanto. They actually use it to get in touch with other weird people to learn from each other develop their 'revolutionary ideas'. That is a use case that you can actually show: "Look how many cool [you would say "weird"] people I met by Esperanto." Opposed to that the use case of conservertive Esperantists remains somewhat abstract. "A constructed, purpose-built lingua franca." Yes. And? "A rational, practical solution." To which problem?

Personally I know quite some Esperanto speakers whom I'd lable "conservative" who are yet attracted to the diversity that Esperanto is offering them and enjoy getting in touch with people who have different ideas. Probably the whole idea of a constructed lingua franca who is not disturbing its speakers by weird ideas of other speakers is an illusion. We all have to deal with the fact, that there are weird people in the Esperanto movement.

What does "Personally I know quite some Esperanto speakers" mean?

Polaris:

sudanglo:Yet another leftie supporter of Esperanto. Why does the movement attract so many lefties? What do we need to do to attract more from the right.

I'm going to go out on a limb here by saying this, but what I think might be going on is that a lot of left-wingers or "liberals" tend to be very vocal and incredibly intolerant. I've actually submitted a post to a politically-oriented Esperanto forum before only to have it summarily dismissed without comment and not released to the list. Usually, anything less than 100% endorsement of their views invites a volley of disrespect and intolerant vitriol from left-wingers, which makes right-wingers just roll their eyes and dismiss them as ranting idiots. It's not that they're all stupid, but as a whole, they seem top-heavy in such people, thus they're not taken seriously--but this creates a false front: to newcomers to a movement like Esperanto, it looks like the leftist views are out in the forefront and represent the movement--which is clearly not the case.

A lot of right-wingers and "conservatives" (such as myself) neither have the time, the patience, nor the inclination to constantly debate or defend against goofy attacks, so we tend to just ignore them and move on. Again, that creates a false appearance that the biggest loud-mouths are steering the ideology--but just look at how many right-wingers there are on this very forum. A lot of Esperantists are religious, conservative, educated, and patriotic...and many of them are far too involved with other things they find more interesting than engaging in lengthy spitting matches.

As a "conservative" I find that intolerance (and stupidity) abounds on both sides of the aisle. The "higher-ups" on both sides are generally the party-line loyal types who only care that their side wins; there is no room for discussion with them. You'll also have your foot-soldiers who vehemently oppose the other side at any chance while relentlessly spewing their own propaganda. I have very particular distaste for anyone who lives and breathes politics, but I easily tolerate anyone who's views are different than mine when they are not a fanatic.
I would say 93.4% of people on both sides are uninformed on both their own stance and on the stance of the other side (yes, I make up numbers).

I would be interested in learning what content was suppressed by what site. Judging by their behavior you owe them no courtesy in withholding that information.

kaŝperanto:
As a "conservative" I find that intolerance (and stupidity) abounds on both sides of the aisle. The "higher-ups" on both sides are generally the party-line loyal types who only care that their side wins; there is no room for discussion with them. You'll also have your foot-soldiers who vehemently oppose the other side at any chance while relentlessly spewing their own propaganda. I have very particular distaste for anyone who lives and breathes politics, but I easily tolerate anyone who's views are different than mine when they are not a fanatic.
I would say 93.4% of people on both sides are uninformed on both their own stance and on the stance of the other side (yes, I make up numbers).

I would be interested in learning what content was suppressed by what site. Judging by their behavior you owe them no courtesy in withholding that information.

Honestly, Kaŝ, that has NOT been my personal experience. I mean, yeah, you've got idiots of all stripes, and a FEW conservatives (albeit a much smaller number than Leftists like to imagine) DO fit the stereotype of xenophobic, shallow-minded nincompoops. But at least here in the United Statess, the liberal Leftists tend to be the loud-mouthed, intolerant bigots who have no common sense.

Don't think so? Look at transgenderism--with the exception of VERY rare genetic conditions, not being able to figure out the difference between a man and a woman makes you pathetic, not "enlightened". It was the Leftists who tried to skewer the founder of Chic Fillet just becaue he said he supported traditional marriage---what happened to all of that "tolerance" they keep talking about? It's the Leftists who were behind firing the Atlanta Georgia firechief for speaking against homosexual behavior in a Bible study book--what happened to HIS freedom? I could go on--if the liberals are so "educated and intelligent", then why can't they see through this garbage? Why couldn't they see through Obama-care? Open-boarders? Entitlement programs that have subsidized poverty? Maybe in other parts of the world the word "liberal" means something else--but around here, all it means is taking more money from people who earned it and trying to shut up anybody who doesn't agree with their agenda.

I question whether the turn this discussion has taken in general is appropriate for this forum. This is a language forum, not a political forum (and especially not a *U.S.* political forum), and we are getting very far from anything to do with Esperanto.

RiotNrrd:I question whether the turn this discussion has taken in general is appropriate for this forum. This is a language forum, not a political forum (and especially not a *U.S.* political forum), and we are getting very far from anything to do with Esperanto.

Oh, my goodness. Riot, you're right, and I apologize. I'll try to stay off my soap box about political matters in places where it is not approriate--at my age, I should know better.