... actually have a real life use case for Esperanto. They actually use it to get in touch with other weird people to learn from each other develop their 'revolutionary ideas'. That is a use case that you can actually show: "Look how many cool [you would say "weird"] people I met by Esperanto."

A sobering point Johmue.

If the practical value in Esperanto is seen as the provision of a means of gay nudist vegans to go on non-judgemental jollies with astrologer druid homeopaths, (or, in more neutral terms, for marginals to meet up with other marginals) then how can Esperanto progress to being something more than marginal?

Until such time as Esperanto is taught in the schools, perhaps the Internet is the great hope for Esperanto - facilitating as it does the learning of the language without actually meeting up or associating with such 'cool/weird' Esperantists.

sudanglo:Until such time as Esperanto is taught in the schools, perhaps the Internet is the great hope for Esperanto - facilitating as it does the learning of the language without actually meeting up or associating with such 'cool/weird' Esperantists.

I doubt that this will work.

Why does anyone want to learn a language that is not used but only learned, taught and promoted?

If you want more conservatives to learn and speak Esperanto, make up some use case for them. A use case that is valid now and not only after the fina venko. Lefties do have such a use case. They are thus using and enjoying the language and not just promote or learn it.

Polaris:
Honestly, Kaŝ, that has NOT been my personal experience. I mean, yeah, you've got idiots of all stripes, and a FEW conservatives (albeit a much smaller number than Leftists like to imagine) DO fit the stereotype of xenophobic, shallow-minded nincompoops. But at least here in the United Statess, the liberal Leftists tend to be the loud-mouthed, intolerant bigots who have no common sense.

Don't think so? Look at transgenderism--with the exception of VERY rare genetic conditions, not being able to figure out the difference between a man and a woman makes you pathetic, not "enlightened". It was the Leftists who tried to skewer the founder of Chic Fillet just becaue he said he supported traditional marriage---what happened to all of that "tolerance" they keep talking about? It's the Leftists who were behind firing the Atlanta Georgia firechief for speaking against homosexual behavior in a Bible study book--what happened to HIS freedom? I could go on--if the liberals are so "educated and intelligent", then why can't they see through this garbage? Why couldn't they see through Obama-care? Open-boarders? Entitlement programs that have subsidized poverty? Maybe in other parts of the world the word "liberal" means something else--but around here, all it means is taking more money from people who earned it and trying to shut up anybody who doesn't agree with their agenda.

You can't just say things like that and complain about bigotry. That is the definition right there.

Attacking the firefighter for his religious activities is indeed wrong, but in the Chick-Fil-a case they were willingly exposing themselves by being heavily involved in political funding. In no way should they be immune from protests/criticism for that, even though it is their right to do it. Tolerance does not equate to allowing the intermingling of the church and the state, and as far as I know there are only religious reasons as to why gay marriage is illegal. "True" conservatives IMHO cannot support this governmental overreach.

Without previous generations of "liberals" we would still be imprisoning and/or chemically castrating gays and colored folk would still be using separate drinking fountains if they weren't yet enslaved.

kaŝperanto:

Polaris:
Honestly, Kaŝ, that has NOT been my personal experience. I mean, yeah, you've got idiots of all stripes, and a FEW conservatives (albeit a much smaller number than Leftists like to imagine) DO fit the stereotype of xenophobic, shallow-minded nincompoops. But at least here in the United Statess, the liberal Leftists tend to be the loud-mouthed, intolerant bigots who have no common sense.

Don't think so? Look at transgenderism--with the exception of VERY rare genetic conditions, not being able to figure out the difference between a man and a woman makes you pathetic, not "enlightened". It was the Leftists who tried to skewer the founder of Chic Fillet just becaue he said he supported traditional marriage---what happened to all of that "tolerance" they keep talking about? It's the Leftists who were behind firing the Atlanta Georgia firechief for speaking against homosexual behavior in a Bible study book--what happened to HIS freedom? I could go on--if the liberals are so "educated and intelligent", then why can't they see through this garbage? Why couldn't they see through Obama-care? Open-boarders? Entitlement programs that have subsidized poverty? Maybe in other parts of the world the word "liberal" means something else--but around here, all it means is taking more money from people who earned it and trying to shut up anybody who doesn't agree with their agenda.

You can't just say things like that and complain about bigotry. That is the definition right there.

Attacking the firefighter for his religious activities is indeed wrong, but in the Chick-Fil-a case they were willingly exposing themselves by being heavily involved in political funding. In no way should they be immune from protests/criticism for that, even though it is their right to do it. Tolerance does not equate to allowing the intermingling of the church and the state, and as far as I know there are only religious reasons as to why gay marriage is illegal. "True" conservatives IMHO cannot support this governmental overreach.

Without previous generations of "liberals" we would still be imprisoning and/or chemically castrating gays and colored folk would still be using separate drinking fountains if they weren't yet enslaved.

I would be glad to discuss this with you off the list. I vehemently disagree with you, and I'm sure it would be a hearty discussion--but let's not discuss it here. Riot is right--this is an Esperanto forum, not a political message board--I already apologized for letting my comments get too far away from Esperanto.

Polaris:

kaŝperanto:...

I would be glad to discuss this with you off the list. I vehemently disagree with you, and I'm sure it would be a hearty discussion--but let's not discuss it here. Riot is right--this is an Esperanto forum, not a political message board--I already apologized for letting my comments get too far away from Esperanto.

Maybe you'd consider discussing it in Esperanto in the Vidpunktoj-forum.

johmue:

Polaris:

kaŝperanto:...

I would be glad to discuss this with you off the list. I vehemently disagree with you, and I'm sure it would be a hearty discussion--but let's not discuss it here. Riot is right--this is an Esperanto forum, not a political message board--I already apologized for letting my comments get too far away from Esperanto.

Maybe you'd consider discussing it in Esperanto in the Vidpunktoj-forum.

SURE--That would be interesting.

johmue:

Polaris:

kaŝperanto:...

I would be glad to discuss this with you off the list. I vehemently disagree with you, and I'm sure it would be a hearty discussion--but let's not discuss it here. Riot is right--this is an Esperanto forum, not a political message board--I already apologized for letting my comments get too far away from Esperanto.

Maybe you'd consider discussing it in Esperanto in the Vidpunktoj-forum.

I agree that the general subject of this discussion is not suitable for this thread at least, but I'd say political discussions are not unwarranted on Lernu unless they get out of hand. Continuing the discussion in a new thread in Vidpunktoj is the proper thing to do in this case.

Forgive me if I've misinterpreted the meaning of your words, but I'm just not sure a discussion on whether or not transgendered people are pathetic is permissible on Lernu at all. If that was not your intent then I suggest the post be edited to avoid further misunderstandings. I would gladly continue to discuss the other subjects that have been brought up.

Forgive me if I've misinterpreted the meaning of your words, but I'm just not sure a discussion on whether or not transgendered people are pathetic is permissible on Lernu at all. If that was not your intent then I suggest the post be edited to avoid further misunderstandings. I would gladly continue to discuss the other subjects that have been brought up.

No, I'm sure you have NOT misinterpreted the meaning of my words; I meant exactly what I said--nothing to misunderstand...nothing to edit. I think it's time for people to call a spade a spade and throw political correctness in the garbage can where it belongs--and not just about this issue, either. BUT BACK TO OUR POINT--Esperanto provides a means of sharing viewpoints, reasoning about issues, and gaining insights and perspectives with people from all around the globe about matters that affect society. To suggest that some ideas or schools of thought should be forbidden from discussion is pure censorship and amounts to thought-control--THE OPPOSITE of what Esperanto is all about.

Left-tending people definitely ain't smarter or more intelligent than those on the other side of the dance floor. But on balance they probably can claim to be more educated. The reason is that they are the kind of people who like reading more. (Libremulo or legemulo, perhaps.) So naturally they are going to be drawn to the world of media, university education, philosophy etc. They tend to live in their own heads, or in the world of ideas, a bit more than their opposites, who are generally more grounded. The left-tending are usually a bit softer, a bit weaker, undoubtedly with less self-confidence; the introspection caused by reading a lot does not help with that. These character traits are why they are so fond of the idea that the strong and the rich should be forced to look after the weak and poor; why they are fond of notions (even government-enforced ones) of harmony, political correctness and togetherness; why they tend to get a little too fanatic-angry when defending their causes (fanatics usually have some kind of secret self-doubt in their beliefs), and plenty more.

Conservatives tend to be more pragmatic and live in the real world, less in books and thinking. This is the origin of the old but true chestnut, 'those who are over 30 and socialist don't have a brain': When people get older (say, past 30), and are surrounded by the real demands of everyday life, they gain wisdom and tend to see the world as it is, and what works and what doesn't, i.e. they become more conservative in their views.

Put it this way. Which was 'more intelligent'; bookish speechifier Cicero, or man-of-action Caesar? Legal-eagle Obama, or rough rider Roosevelt?

Yes, Esperanto seems to be a lot more popular with the left-tending for various reasons, many of which have been mentioned in this thread. Book-reading types are going to be more drawn to it. One slightly annoying thing about kunsidos is that most of the members tend to be left-tending. A bagatelo for me, but a reasonable source of unattractiveness to ordinary people, to whom a free barbecue would be far more enticing. I reckon it would be pretty hard to make the membership of Esperanto more balanced at the moment. Perhaps we should simply wait for the left's inevitable collapse?

The Esperanto language forums are the perfect forums here at Lernu for these types of discussions.

The national language forums are meant to be used by beginners, new to either Esperanto, Lernu, or both, who are encouraged to ask questions in their native languages in them (because presumably they don't have the knowledge yet to do so in Esperanto), and by more experienced Esperantists who want to help said beginners.

Obviously, this intended primary focus is only loosely enforced, because c'mon. Nevertheless, these forums are meant to be safe and welcoming places for newbies. Flamewars are discouraged, and at the moment I'm catching little whiffs of gasoline and hearing the sounds of matchbooks opening.[1]

There are far fewer fire extinguishers in the Esperanto language forums. That doesn't mean there aren't *any* rules over there - there are - but the lines are a lot more loosely drawn. Mainly because flamewars, or "spirited discussions", or whatever you want to call them, won't scare the newbies away over in that section of the forum until they're good enough to read them, and by then it's usually too late.

Also, the practice will do you good.

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[1] I'm not a moderator and have no power to enforce anything on anyone. I have, however, been around here a long time and know which way the winds blow. I'm just sayin'.