sudanglo:The prospect of being able to understand a menu in Esperanto in a foreign Restaurant, or being able to use it abroad to order a drink in a bar, or ask for directions, or get the heating turned up in your hotel, or report a theft to the police, or describe your symptoms to a pharmacist, would make the language much more attractive.

Yeah, I can see that.

Tempodivalse:@johnmue, @sudanglo et al.,

I think the underlying problem here is that many people don't care about learning foreign languages in general, no matter how many people speak them - one comment on a blog post advertising Esperanto was, "I wouldn't even be motivated enough to learn Chinese even though it has a billion speakers - moreso for Esperanto".

In many parts of the U.S. and U.K., at least, a large portion of the population is not only monolingual, but profoundly monoglot: i.e., it simply can't be bothered with language. The perceived lack of practicality of Esperanto doesn't make them more disinclined to learn it than they already are. These kinds of people would only learn a language if it is directly necessary, i.e., if their job demands it, or if they are immediately inconvenienced by not knowing it.

My cut and paste isn't working or I would edit this into my previous post - I wanted to say something along those lines, but I couldn't for the life of me figure out how to put it, but yes, this.

flootzavut:

sudanglo:The prospect of being able to understand a menu in Esperanto in a foreign Restaurant, or being able to use it abroad to order a drink in a bar, or ask for directions, or get the heating turned up in your hotel, or report a theft to the police, or describe your symptoms to a pharmacist, would make the language much more attractive.

Yeah, I can see that.

I think that sudanglo has a very important point here. If I am traveling in a distant country whose native language I do not speak (and few if any local people speak mine), what good does it do me if I can read an Esperanto translation of "Great Expectations" but cannot ask the concierge how to turn up the heat or get the hot water for a bath? Sometimes I wonder if many Esperantists focus too much on the "big issues" and overlook the small, day to day, matters of life in international needs.

sudanglo:The prospect of being able to understand a menu in Esperanto in a foreign Restaurant, or being able to use it abroad to order a drink in a bar, or ask for directions, or get the heating turned up in your hotel, or report a theft to the police, or describe your symptoms to a pharmacist, would make the language much more attractive.

I read that there are a few restaurants in Herzberg, Germany, that have menus in Esperanto. I'm not sure about the other things; even if it is the "Esperanto-urbo", I doubt everyone there knows Esperanto... But then, I've never been there, so I couldn't say for sure .

nornen, the world is getting smaller and for Americans the problem is not so much that they don't want to understand the world, but having contact with foreign languages is not easy - and in parts of the country speakers of other languages are regarded sort of as having a handicap! BUT, and that BUT is important - they all understand that in today's world they will have to communicate with other countries for business, politics, education, etc. That is why understanding how to phrase things internationally is important,. Even if you still use your own language.

sudanglo:If you are referring to Eternaj Komencantoj in clubs and at Congresses, I would think that the issue is more one of motivation...Having reached a certain stage these people can feel themselves to be members of the Esperanto fraternity and enjoy themselves at Esperanto events understanding most of what is said...I recall from my own youth how attending my first international Esperanto Congress I could, after a few months home study of perhaps half an hour a day, understand 99% of what I heard, whilst taking some time to put together a sentence.

The ability to study on one's own and then go and use the language was one of the truly amazing things that turned me onto Esperanto in the first place. The first Esperanto event I attended was an Esperanto Toastmasters meeting in Chicago (the local Esperanto society had a joint event with Toastmasters--the speeches were in Esperanto!) I have no idea if such a group still exists, but that was the first time I had ever been around experienced Esperantists---and it amazed me that I could understand so much.

True, many of those who use Esperanto are not going to develop a fluency-without-thinking level of skill. But if someone is able to understand most of what is said at an event, then he is not a beginner, even if his oral production skills lag behind. And if you had studied for several months, investing around a half an hour a day, then you were not a beginner, either.

The problem we have (at least in the U.S.) is not that nobody wants to develop foreign language skills---they just don't want to invest the time and effort that developing those skills requires. When they hear how "easy" Esperanto is, having never developed skills in any other foreign language, they expect that they'll be able to do what you do WITHOUT spending spending a few months of study--in fact, my experience has been that they don't really expect to have to study much at all.

Polaris:
The problem we have (at least in the U.S.) is not that nobody wants to develop foreign language skills---they just don't want to invest the time and effort that developing those skills requires. When they hear how "easy" Esperanto is, having never developed skills in any other foreign language, they expect that they'll be able to do what you do WITHOUT spending spending a few months of study--in fact, my experience has been that they don't really expect to have to study much at all.

While that's undoubtedly the case for adult speakers, I imagine students would be a lot more willing to put in the effort. I've always thought that high school students would benefit from a kind of "Intro to Language Learning" class in which EO is taught as a prerequisite for other language classes. It could be quite a powerful way to build up EO and encourage multilinguilism in English-speaking countries.

Of course, getting that implemented on any large scale might pose a problem, but there seem to be lots of similar pilot projects around.

It is an interesting idea to try and present Esperanto as a "model" language, rather than as a foreign language. That the point of looking at it in an educational setting is not specifically about learning the language itself, but rather for how it can be used to illustrate grammar, parts of speech, idioms, etc., underscoring all along that the students are *explicitly not expected* to ever actually use it after the class is over. It's OK that no one speaks it; that's not why it's taught. Esperanto is (presented as) just a simplified model of language in general, and that's all it's going to be used for. Like the plastic skeleton that hangs in a doctors office or the map that hangs on the History classrooms wall, it would be used to point things out in a simple and clear fashion, and that's it. And if it sparks a students interest in "real" languages, and they want to move on to French or Spanish or whatever, then it will have served its purpose; possibly even having provided a foundation for learning those totally real and mother-approved languages.

And if the kids want to keep on using Esperanto once class is done, well, that's great, too. That's *their* business, though. The Esperanto section was last semester.

Actually, the more I think about it, the more I like the term "model language" to describe Esperanto rather than "artificial" or "constructed" - or even "foreign", to tell you the truth. To me, at least, the word "model" seems to lack some of the unpleasant connotations of the first two (or three, if you're a xenophobe); it somehow - again, to me, at least - seems less threatening and just generally more neutral.

Presenting Esperanto as a model just means it's something to look at. No culture? Doesn't matter. No speakers? Doesn't matter. Isn't perfect? Doesn't matter. It's just a model, guys; a teaching aid; a step on the road to somewhere else. It isn't trying to take over the world.

This is exactly how I used Esperanto for several years in my classes to teach future foreign language teachers how to instruct more effectively. Since they were all going to be teaching different languages, I used Esperanto as the model. I have handwritten notes on this and I have set it into my agenda to type them out with more detail. If anyone is interested in that, I will gladly share - I have no need to "own" them - I guess that I am just a true zamenhofian at heart.