Toki Pona is sure fun and games, but not a serious viable option for anything more than what it is.

That's why I find it weird that so many people compare it to Esperanto.

vikungen:Toki Pona is sure fun and games, but not a serious viable option for anything more than what it is.

That's why I find it weird that so many people compare it to Esperanto.

You can compare both, because also Esperanto is "not a serious viable option for anything more than what it is".

Does your statement actually make any sense? How can something be more than itself?

But if you want to promote Esperanto this way, please explain how Esperanto is "a serious viable option for anything more than what it is".

Tempo:So, instead of worrying about how EO is perceived among those who would probably never learn it anyway - it would be more productive ...

It may well matter how Bob the 'oftulo' views Esperanto, even if he is the sort of person who would never learn Esperanto.

Bob by definition represents the majority and since he is a regular kind of guy, we may assume that he is not a recluse or hermit - he interacts with others.

So if Bob thinks Esperantists are weird (because of TV or radio presentations) he may well be tempted to ridicule someone who says he is thinking of learning Esperanto or has started to learn Esperanto.

The attitude of the majority towards Esperanto creates a climate for those who might learn Esperanto. This climate in turn creates a filter through which perhaps only the dyed-in-the-wool stranguloj may pass.

But worst of all is, if Bob the oftulo nevertheless decides to learn Esperanto and then discovers that Esperantujo is populated by stranguloj, then Bob the oftulo finds this distasteful, is scared off, and goes around bad-mouthing Esperanto because of his unfortunate experience.

sudanglo:

Tempo:So, instead of worrying about how EO is perceived among those who would probably never learn it anyway - it would be more productive ...

It may well matter how Bob the 'oftulo' views Esperanto, even if he is the sort of person who would never learn Esperanto.

Bob by definition represents the majority and since he is a regular kind of guy, we may assume that he is not a recluse or hermit - he interacts with others.

So if Bob thinks Esperantists are weird (because of TV or radio presentations) he may well be tempted to ridicule someone who says he is thinking of learning Esperanto or has started to learn Esperanto.

The attitude of the majority towards Esperanto creates a climate for those who might learn Esperanto. This climate in turn creates a filter through which perhaps only the dyed-in-the-wool stranguloj may pass.

But worst of all is, if Bob the oftulo nevertheless decides to learn Esperanto and then discovers that Esperantujo is populated by stranguloj, then Bob the oftulo finds this distasteful, is scared off, and goes around bad-mouthing Esperanto because of his unfortunate experience.

While attracting the masses seems like a good idea, I don't know that it would even be possible to do this from a cultural standpoint. A lot of people enjoy Japanese anime shows and other content, but only very few such fans will learn the language to enjoy the culture personally. We shouldn't try to advertise our economy sedan as a sports car or a jeep. Sure, you will get some fans who love their '92 Honda Civics, but for the majority a sedan is just a sedan. Esperanto will be easier to sell as a means to an end, and their is no better way to advertise than to "get them while they're young".

We could reduce language-teaching costs in schools dramatically by only requiring a year or two of Esperanto (English speaking nations, anyway). Foreign language is already required, and I'm sure schools struggling to improve state test scores would jump at the opportunity for cutting costs here. We have good evidence that this boosts language learning abilities as well, so objectively it is an easy sell (subjectively, not so much). Even if that is the only initiative, after a few years there will be enough Esperanto speakers to make translation less necessary on a global scale. Esperanto likely won't compete with English for formal work/interaction initially, but when both parties are nearly fluent in Esperanto it would be hard to justify using English, even if we have a massive historical debt to it.

nornen:

vikungen:Toki Pona is sure fun and games, but not a serious viable option for anything more than what it is.

That's why I find it weird that so many people compare it to Esperanto.

You can compare both, because also Esperanto is "not a serious viable option for anything more than what it is".

Does your statement actually make any sense? How can something be more than itself?

But if you want to promote Esperanto this way, please explain how Esperanto is "a serious viable option for anything more than what it is".

Toki Pona has a vocabulary of 120 words, how are you going to express ideas like vacuum cleaner filter, space station bridge, ionizing radiation? To my knowledge Toki Pona uses the same word for a foot, a leg, a thigh, a calf, a knee and an ankle. Good luck going to the doctor trying to explain where you're hurting. Esperanto on the other hand can be used to express everything unambiguously just as well as in English, French, German, Norwegian, Mandarin, Swahili ktp. Toki Pona is not designed international auxiliary language and could not function as one, Esperanto is and could.

sudanglo:It may well matter how Bob the 'oftulo' views Esperanto, even if he is the sort of person who would never learn Esperanto.

Bob by definition represents the majority and since he is a regular kind of guy, we may assume that he is not a recluse or hermit - he interacts with others.

So if Bob thinks Esperantists are weird [...] he may well be tempted to ridicule someone who says he is thinking of learning Esperanto or has started to learn Esperanto.

The attitude of the majority towards Esperanto creates a climate for those who might learn Esperanto. This climate in turn creates a filter through which perhaps only the dyed-in-the-wool stranguloj may pass.

But worst of all is, if Bob the oftulo nevertheless decides to learn Esperanto and then discovers that Esperantujo is populated by stranguloj, then Bob the oftulo finds this distasteful, is scared off, and goes around bad-mouthing Esperanto because of his unfortunate experience.

Sudanglo, I don't mean to say I find your scenario implausible. But as I've indicated elsewhere, the underlying problem is that most people can't be bothered to develop an informed opinion. I think Bob would be just as likely to bad-mouth Esperanto if he had just learned about its existence five minutes ago, as he would if he had experienced a non-ideal encounter with an Esperantist.

The problem we've run into is that there is an inherent bias against anything out of the "mainstream", culturally or otherwise. Bob is simply small-minded. He is simply uncomfortable with unfamiliar things. He is uncomfortable with things he doesn't understand. [1] Short of a massive publicity campaign Esperantujo is unable undertake, Bob's predispositions towards Esperanto and other non-ordinary things won't change.

Tempodivalse:Ignorant, vocal dismissals of Esperanto can't really be addressed, since their espousers aren't interested in a rational conversation on the subject.

This entire conversation appears to be based on the premise that it would be preferable for Esperanto to have as wide of a mass appeal as possible. I hold no such belief, per se. Esperanto can be immensely useful even without ever attaining an endgame that the finvenkistoj envision.

It could be a useful documentation language (cf. Esperanto Wikipedia). It could be a useful language for international scientific pursuits (San Marino University). Its purely propadeutic value could be realised in academic settings. It could be used by travelers wishing to get off the beaten tourist track and actually interact with foreigners in a common tongue (Pasporta Servo). In fact, Esperanto is already used in these roles, to a limited extent - and none of it requires its mass acceptance.

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[1] For example, Bob might be apprehensive of, or uncomfortable around, homosexual men because he doesn't understand how, or why, a male would prefer another male over a female.

This entire conversation appears to be based on the premise that it would be preferable for Esperanto to have as wide of a mass appeal as possible.

Yes indeedy! What a silly idea!

sudanglo:

This entire conversation appears to be based on the premise that it would be preferable for Esperanto to have as wide of a mass appeal as possible.

Yes indeedy! What a silly idea!

Perhaps I'm too much of a raŭmisto. And maybe that, namely our varying intuitions, is the core of our disagreement - as is often the case in axiological (value-based) debates.

Would it be nice for Bob to be thrilled about learning Esperanto? Sure. I'd be ecstatic! But I don't think that's very realistic[1]. The point I tried to convey (apparently unsuccessfully) in my above commentary is that there are other metrics by which we can determine Esperanto's success or gauge its progress - not just the classic finvenskisto ones (e.g., "Let's get the whole world speaking it" ).

[1] EDIT: At least for the forseeable future.

Probably the best way is the middle way, as the Buddha would put it. Or as Zamenhof called it "guto post guto". The progress of our language is not an either-or proposition. With every new speaker, poem, translation, original work, news item, conversation, t-shirt and more we are building Esperanto together. No positive contribution is too small. Even the great pyramids consist of tiny grains of sand.
I recently added my name to a list of people welcoming a new Esperantist from East Timor to Facebook. Today I scrolled down the list of well-wishers! Wow! What an impressive list of people from all over the world, from all continents!
We ARE winning hearts and minds. Sometimes maybe we look around our immediate environment and don't see the change. But then you suddenly meet someone from Azerbaijian online who writes in Esperanto, or you mention it in a conversation and somebody suddenly says "Ankaŭ mi parolas Esperanton" and you are surprised - at least I am.
I think that we are all on the right path - it is just a long journey.

there are other metrics by which we can determine Esperanto's success or gauge its progress

Well I can't disagree with that.

Yes, the number of literary works in Esperanto, the quality of the coursebooks and grammars and specialist glossaries, the presence of Esperanto on the Internet (Esperanto Wikipedia, Google Translate, Lernu.net), the number of Esperanto congresses and local courses and clubs, etc. are all undeniably important, and arguably contribute to the ultimate goal. You might say that such things are necessary precursors.

But I would suggest that the metric that really counts is the number of speakers and their distribution.

Though, it is difficult to decide whether only a change in the image of Esperanto will lead to a substantial increase in the number of speakers, or whether only a substantial increase in the number of speakers will change the image of Esperanto.

The trouble with Raŭmismo is that it is explicitly defeatist - la oficialigo de Esperanto estas nek verŝajna, nek esenca .... oni havu alternativajn celojn - it demotes Esperanto to the gypsy language of a diaspora, to a mere hobby interest.

It provides no motivation for the introduction of Esperanto into the school curriculum (the most probable mechanism for a massive increase in the number of speakers).