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Any fluent speakers who can answer these grammatical questions for me?

by leshoseph, January 24, 2015

Messages: 19

Language: English

leshoseph (User's profile) January 24, 2015, 10:16:58 PM

1.) I understand that instrumentality of a noun is expressed with the preposition 'per', but what about the instrumentality of a verb?
For example, how would you say 'I understand it by looking at it'? Would it be something like 'Mi komprenas gxin per la regardo de gxi'?
2.) I understand that in the sentence 'It is good to read books', the introductory particle simply disappears (Estas bona regi librojn) but how would you say 'I am glad to read books?'
3.) With plurals, in Germanic languages, the article disappears sometimes (like 'books' can mean all the books in existence (eg. 'books are boring' ), or it can mean SOME books (eg. 'there are books in the library' ), however, in French for example, books as in all books is 'les livres' and books as in a certain group of books is 'des livres', you never drop the article, so how does this work in Esperanto? When do you use an article with the plural?
4.) Does 'bonveno en' mean 'welcome to'?
5.) How would you say 'I work as a doctor'?
6.) How would you say 'This book is read by a man'? (essentially, how does the passive construction work?)
7.) What is the first person plural form of the imperative? (the equivalent of 'let's...' in English)
8.) Is there an equivalent of the particle 'so'? (like in the sentence 'so, how are you?' )
Thank you for any answers I get!

Matthieu (User's profile) January 24, 2015, 10:25:46 PM

1) "Mi komprenas ĝin per la rigardo de ĝi" is correct in principle, although it sounds somewhat heavy to me. I would say "Mi komprenas ĝin rigardante ĝin." You can usually translate "by -ing" as "-ante".

2) The correct sentence is "Estas bone legi librojn." "I am glad to read books" is "Mi ĝojas legi librojn."

3) I think it works more or less as in English. I'd understand "la libroj" as "a specific group of books" and "libroj" as "some books" or "books in general".

4) "Bonvenon en" or "bonvenon al" (with a -n) means "welcome to".

5) "Mi laboras kiel kuracisto."

6) "Tiu libro estas legata de viro." You have to use a passive participle (-ata) and the agent is introduced by the preposition "de".

7) "Ni -u". You can use the imperative (-u) with any person.

8) I'd use "do" or "nu".

Fenris_kcf (User's profile) January 24, 2015, 11:39:02 PM

Mutusen:2) The correct sentence is "Estas bone legi librojn." "I am glad to read books" is "Mi ĝojas legi librojn."
Hmm, really? IMO the attribute "bon-" does not refer to the verb "esti", so it is not an adverb. Actually i see such sentences as ellipses, i.e. short for "Legi librojn estas bona afero.". By leaving out the "afero" end changing the word-order, you get to what leshoseph wrote (but "legi" instead of "regi" ).

Christa627 (User's profile) January 24, 2015, 11:55:26 PM

Fenris_kcf:
Mutusen:2) The correct sentence is "Estas bone legi librojn." "I am glad to read books" is "Mi ĝojas legi librojn."
Hmm, really? IMO the attribute "bon-" does not refer to the verb "esti", so it is not an adverb. Actually i see such sentences as ellipses, i.e. short for "Legi librojn estas bona afero.". By leaving out the "afero" end changing the word-order, you get to what leshoseph wrote (but "legi" instead of "regi" ).
"Estas bone legi librojn" = "Legi librojn estas bone"
Adjectives only describe nouns and pronouns, and "legi" is neither. Same as "Estas agrable renkonti vin." "Renkonti" is a verb, and therefore described by the adverb "agrable".

Fenris_kcf (User's profile) January 25, 2015, 1:01:12 AM

You did not get my point. IMO "bon" refers to the left out "afero" and must therefore be an adjective, not an adverb.

leshoseph (User's profile) January 25, 2015, 1:23:17 AM

Mutusen:1) "Mi komprenas ĝin per la rigardo de ĝi" is correct in principle, although it sounds somewhat heavy to me. I would say "Mi komprenas ĝin rigardante ĝin." You can usually translate "by -ing" as "-ante".

2) The correct sentence is "Estas bone legi librojn." "I am glad to read books" is "Mi ĝojas legi librojn."

3) I think it works more or less as in English. I'd understand "la libroj" as "a specific group of books" and "libroj" as "some books" or "books in general".

4) "Bonvenon en" or "bonvenon al" (with a -n) means "welcome to".

5) "Mi laboras kiel kuracisto."

6) "Tiu libro estas legata de viro." You have to use a passive participle (-ata) and the agent is introduced by the preposition "de".

7) "Ni -u". You can use the imperative (-u) with any person.

8) I'd use "do" or "nu".
Thank you, this was extremely useful.

Tempodivalse (User's profile) January 25, 2015, 2:04:15 AM

Fenris_kcf:You did not get my point. IMO "bon" refers to the left out "afero" and must therefore be an adjective, not an adverb.
The adverb ending in this case is more appropriate. "Estas" is in this case an impersonal verb and thus must be modified by an adverb, similar to the constructions Estas varme or Estas pluve (i.e., no overt subject).

Notice that you can rewrite the sentence to read: Bonas legi librojn, which has the same meaning. This would be impossible if "bon-" were modifying an implied noun.

Also -
7) "Ni -u". You can use the imperative (-u) with any person.
Just a point of clarification: if you're using the imperative not in the second person, then the subject should be made explicit. Whenever the subject is left out (e.g., Legu la novelon!, "vi" is assumed.

nornen (User's profile) January 25, 2015, 2:30:46 AM

Tempodivalse:
Fenris_kcf:You did not get my point. IMO "bon" refers to the left out "afero" and must therefore be an adjective, not an adverb.
The adverb ending in this case is more appropriate. "Estas" is in this case an impersonal verb and thus must be modified by an adverb, similar to the constructions Estas varme or Estas pluve (i.e., no overt subject).
Correct conclusion, wrong argumentation.
In "Estas bone legi librojn", the predicate noun "bone" has the adverbal ending because its antecedent is verbal. Adjectives referring to verbs or VPs always take the adverbal ending in Esperanto, no matter whether they are attributive (legi bone) or predicative (legi estas bone).
This has nothing to do with impersonal verbs or lack of overt subjects, nor does "bone" modify "estas".
In "Estas bone legi librojn" the verb "esti" is not impersonal and there is indeed an overt subject. The subject of "estas bone" in this case is "legi librojn".

As a reference see the Fundamento: Resti kun leono estas danĝere.

Polaris (User's profile) January 25, 2015, 5:40:06 AM

Fenris_kcf:You did not get my point. IMO "bon" refers to the left out "afero" and must therefore be an adjective, not an adverb.
I understand what you are saying, Fenris, but I'm afraid that you are mistaken. Consider weather expressions: We say, "La vetero estas malvarma" (the weather is cold). But if I just say "it's cold", I have to make it "estas malvarme" Now, WHAT is cold? Obviously, the weather is, and a case could be made that I'm being elliptical by leaving out the word "weather", and that it is the understood subject. None-the-less, unless I have a noun ending with an -o, then I can't describe it with an adjective ending with an -a.

This is unintuitive for English speakers, because in English, infinitives can be used as nouns. However, Esperanto uses -ado forms and makes them into actual nouns (that can be modified with an adjective ending with -a) instead of using infinitives that way.

sudanglo (User's profile) January 25, 2015, 12:16:24 PM

1. In principle (for consistency) any preposition could stand before an infinitive in Esperanto, so 'per rigardi' is a theoretical solution. But in practice the set of prepositions that Esperanto allows in this position is limited and as yet 'per' hasn't joined this exclusive club.

So either you have to say mi komprenas ĝin per rigardo (rigardado/ekrigardo/trarigardo), or as Mutusen suggests by use of the adverbial participle.

2. Although the norm is to use the adverb, one can occasionally come across sentences where the adjective is clearer than the adverb when qualifying Verb Phrases without a referential noun/pronoun for the adjective to connect to. There are, I believe, Zamenhofian examples of this deviation from the norm but I can't recall any specific example, or make up a good one myself.

Certainly in elliptical sentences it seem possible. Ĉu ebla, iri per tramo? (Ĉu eble iri per tramo? feels more like a tentative suggestion). However the full sentence has to be Ĉu estas eble iri per tramo?

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