johmue:Esperanto is not only international but also intercultural. What you describe here as ridiculous, disgusting and not to be taken seriously is accepted over here in Europe.

Well, in the first place, in the U.S., we have our own share of debauchery...Europe hasn't cornered the market on it. But if Europe IS overun by immorality and indecency, then more's the pity. Licentiousness doesn't magically become unharmful or right just because some group of people decides to accept it. But having said that, I don't believe we can paint any culture with that broad of a brush. Europe is a big place, and while there may be fewer scruples and less concerns (in some places) about such matters, A. there are still Europeans who are faithfully married and raising children with solid morals and family values, and B. even if Europeans as a whole DID disregard moral scruples, SO WHAT? If Esperanto IS intercultural, as you say, then that means that it's not all about Europe. What about the moral sensibilities of many of the Americans? Don't we make up part of the culture as well? What about traditional Asians? Family-oriented South Americans? The middle-easterners? Europe isn't the trend-setter of the world--and we have to take into consideration how we look to the rest of society, not just to the Europeans.

What I'm concerned about is NOT that there are people in Esperanto who engage in these behaviors---it's to contend that FEATURING these matters--pushing them to the foreground and making it look like the Esperanto movement is characterized by it, is hurting the movement--BADLY. Even if Europeans, as a whole, didn't care--what about the rest of the world? How is this current trend working out for us, and where is it getting us? At the last UK (in Europe), how many people attended?

My point is simply that if we want to see Esperanto respected and taken seriously, then we have to be known for something other than disreputable sexual abandon and fringe-group causes. This seems like common sense and it amazes me that I'm having to contend for it.

The only way Esperanto will ever come out of the shadows AND be taken seriously (and be accorded the respect it deserves) will be when it becomes known for serious pursuits such as
You are not the first one to say "For Esperanto to become widely accepted we should ..." and you for sure won't be the last.

What's the difference between the ones "not to be taken seriously" and you? The "ridiculous ones" do things. You talk about what should be done.

No they're not. They're doing nothing other than acting like naughty college frat boys and using Esperanto as a forum to promote their fringe causes--ANYBODY can do that. As for me "TALKING" about it, well, we've got to start somewhere--somebody has to recognize that the proverbial emperor has no clothes on--THEN, collectively, we might be able to do something about it. Featuring the sharing of scholarly research information, offering degree programs, setting up commercial activities, and providing charitable services is going to get us a whole lot further in the eyes of the rest of the world than some guy singing "Mola" in public and not even having sense enough to know he should be embarrassed.

Wow Polaris,
all that stuff you said sure is weird.

Polaris:As long as the Esperanto movement is largely known for such things as handing out condoms at Tejo events ("Esperanto Protects You" ), making a point of holding congresses in communist countries, letting its loudest voice be the "all-things-weird-and-radical" crowd, and even going so far as marching in "gay pride" parades (just happened in the Phillipines--see Libera Folio--I'm not making this stuff up), we're going to have serious public image problems--because that's what the rest of society is going to associate Esperanto with.

When I first starting learning about Esperanto, just 6 months ago, I noticed that there does seem to be a strong sex subculture.

For someone to learn Esperanto, I think they have to be open minded. If someone is open minded then they are likely more accepting of "all-things-weird-and-radical". It is just like trying to find "normal" people who speak Klingon.

I think Esperanto does have a sub-culture. There seems to be a lot of Esperanto programmers. I am shocked at how many people on this forum have programming experience. Also, there are a lot of gays, lesbians, bisexual, and vegan/vegetarians. For example, I just watched a Youtube video recently where someone was coming out of the closet in Esperanto.

I don't know if this is a good thing or a bad thing to be associate with, but I can see how it would drive conservatives up the wall.

Anyway, as Esperanto becomes more mainstream, I think there will be more mainstream speakers.

Finally, don't forget that bad publicity is good advertising. Good publicity is boring but still a little effective.

Attention all throw backs:

Sexual liberation IS mainstream. It has nothing to do with Esperanto.

vejktoro:Attention all throw backs:

Sexual liberation IS mainstream. It has nothing to do with Esperanto.

Actually, studies are showing that this generation is having less sex. Link.

I think people are afraid of STDs. Also, I think people are more stressed out, and have worse physical health these days, which is a factor.

Alkanadi:

vejktoro:Attention all throw backs:

Sexual liberation IS mainstream. It has nothing to do with Esperanto.

Actually, studies are showing that this generation is having less sex. Link.

I think people are afraid of STDs. Also, I think people are more stressed out, and have worse physical health these days, which is a factor.

HAVING sex has nothing to do with it.

This concern about 'normality' (which is apparently a word referring to american bible belt zombie culture) has certainly hijacked Se's original post.

Just sayin'.

Polaris:But if Europe IS overun by immorality and indecency, then more's the pity. Licentiousness doesn't magically become unharmful or right just because some group of people decides to accept it.

So you think the way of life we are talking about here is immoral and indecent?

A. there are still Europeans who are faithfully married and raising children with solid morals and family values,

Indeed there are. As opposed to you, they or the majority of them don't consider people following a different way of life "immoral" and "indecent".

If Esperanto IS intercultural, as you say, then that means that it's not all about Europe. What about the moral sensibilities of many of the Americans?

If people having other values of moral than you are hurting your sensibilities, well, your problem. The world is diverse and we all have to deal with that.

Don't we make up part of the culture as well?

A part, yes. And as a part you have to accept that it's only a part that's not in any way superiour or more moral than other parts.

Even if Europeans, as a whole, didn't care--what about the rest of the world? How is this current trend working out for us, and where is it getting us? At the last UK (in Europe), how many people attended?

UK's number of participants is declining, but that's not a measure of Esperanto activity. There are a lot of smaller events coming up.

My point is simply that if we want to see Esperanto respected and taken seriously, then we have to be known for something other than disreputable sexual abandon and fringe-group causes. This seems like common sense and it amazes me that I'm having to contend for it.

Look. You say that ways of life other than "faithfully married and raising children with solid morals and family values" are immoral and indecent. That's what I'd call a "fringe-cause", saying that oneself's way of life is the only moral one. Whereas participating a gay's pride parade is more like mainstream to me. At least it's not in any way shocking.

That's what I mean by intercultural. What is a fringe-cause to someone to someone else might be mainstream.

No they're not. They're doing nothing other than acting like naughty college frat boys and using Esperanto as a forum to promote their fringe causes--ANYBODY can do that.

So where is your Esperanto blog, podcast, journal, congress about your highly moral solid family values?

As for me "TALKING" about it, well, we've got to start somewhere--somebody has to recognize that the proverbial emperor has no clothes on--THEN, collectively, we might be able to do something about it.

Ok, I see. You are the one to recognize and the others (we collectively) are supposed to do something about it.

Featuring the sharing of scholarly research information,

I am the editor of Scienca Revuo. My problem is indeed the lack of high quality articles. I am waiting for your submissions.

than some guy singing "Mola" in public and not even having sense enough to know he should be embarrassed.

That's a very selective view on what's actually going on in Esperanto culture.

Polaris:...some guy singing "Mola" in public and not even having sense enough to know he should be embarrassed.

If this is the song you are talking about, could you please specify in detail, why somebody singing it "should have sense enough to know he should be embarrassed"? Embarrassed about what? About the erectile dysfunction of the song's protagonist? Could happen to anybody...

-forigite-