robbkvasnak:Whooooaaa! So what is wrong with marching in a Gay Pride Parade?

Everything. Esperanto groups that need to stay out of "hot button" controversial issues like that. A. They have no business speaking for their entire group on such matters--that is outrageously arrogant and presumptuous, B. While they're supposedly promoting Esperanto, they're turning people who do not share their views off over an irrelevant issue., and C. They're giving the patently false impression that there is some link between Esperanto and their political causes. When they're running around with signs proclaiming that the Phillipine Esperanto community supports that sort of thing, they're implying that Esperantists support homosexuality. That would be no different than a couple of Esperantists showing up at a Tea Party rally with signs saying "the ________________ Esperanto Community supports the Tea Party Patriots and their objectives", or showing up at an anti-Israel event carrying signs proclaiming "the __________________ Esperanto Community supports Palestinians in a "two-state solution". How would you feel as an Esperantist if your national organization showed up at a Republican event carrying signs proclaiming "Esperanto USA Supports Conservatives Solutions For A Stronger America"...complete with Bible quotes and pictures of praying children? Kind of puts things into perspective, doesn't it?

IF ESPERANTO-SPEAKING SUB-COMMUNITIES want to go to events such as these and speak for themselves, I have no problem with that--anybody can use Esperanto for international communication--but you don't get to speak for the Esperanto community at large (either locally, nationally, or internationally) and arrogate to yourself the authority to declare what the official party-line opinion is going to be. That's just plain wrong.

Maybe what would make our culture unpalatable would be a bunch of religious fanatics trying to dictate their personal theology to the rest of the world. ...
But DO NOT TRY TO IMPOSE YOUR PERSONAL VIEWS ON THE THEORIES OR DIVINITY on the rest of us.

You know what I find truly fascinating? The only person who has said even one word about religion in this exchange is you. There are so many reasons that go far beyond the Bible for supporting things like traditional marriage, marital fidelity, family values, etc., but in this discussion, frankly, none of that is relevant. What IS relevant is that this business of marching in a "gay pride" parade (carrying signs saying that their national Esperanto community supported homosexuals and transgenderism, etc.) ALONG WITH all the other things I mentioned makes it look like THAT is what Esperanto is all about---then we wonder why the rest of the world treats us like goof balls and extremists and we are not taken seriously.

I'll say it again--we need to have the self-respect to change the way we represent ourselves to society. When we become known for international exchange of practical information, international college courses, humanitarian relief organizations, etc., people will start to sit up and take notice---for the RIGHT reasons---and Esperanto will come out of the shadows and take its rightful place.

I wonder if one would have said the same if Esperantists had marched in the Civil Rights Protests of the 60s and 70s. That was surely a controversial topic.

I sure would like to hope that the Esperantists of that time were largely on the side of civil rights. I sure would like to hope that the Esperantists of this time are also largely on the side of civil rights.

You know what I find truly fascinating? The only person who has said even one word about religion in this exchange is you. There are so many reasons that go far beyond the Bible for supporting things like traditional marriage, marital fidelity, family values, etc., but in this discussion, frankly, none of that is relevant. What IS relevant is that this business of marching in a "gay pride" parade (carrying signs saying that their national Esperanto community supported homosexuals and transgenderism, etc.) ALONG WITH all the other things I mentioned makes it look like THAT is what Esperanto is all about---then we wonder why the rest of the world treats us like goof balls and extremists and we are not taken seriously.

Well said.

I do have religious faith and it has shaped how I live my sexual life. However, if I lost my faith in the morning, it wouldn't change a single thing about how I behave sexually. I have reached that stage of life where I can look back and see the common sense in common Christian teachings about natural law and human sexuality. As a matter of fact, the biggest challenge to my faith is the sexual teaching of the Church - not that I rail against it. The challenge for me is that it makes so much sense, it poses the question whether it is of divine origin or is it just the experience of "best practice" through the ages, filtered by the thing we call tradition? I have a hunch that some day the world will rediscover this ancient wisdom and vaunt it as some new discovery, much in the same way that many folk today celebrate contemporary hedonism as something new and thoroughly modern...

Esperanto? The problem I have had in the past is that the pool of Esperanto speakers/posters is so small that I end up having contact with ideas and opinions that I would eschew in my vernacular life. I struggle with it. It is really off-putting...

Maybe in Oklahoma being out is a hot-button issue. Still. Believe me, soon it will no longer be. Once people just get used to us being humans, living our lives and contributing to our communities as we are, things quiet down. I have experienced that in Germany (they used to throw us in KZs and kill us, remember?), in Canada and now in Florida. At first people dislike the fact that we can marry and then, after the "dust" settles, it becomes a non-issue.
I did not mention Gay pride until our friend from Oki did. And the "issue" with being gay is always "religious" - I have heard no other objections - not historic (think: emperor Augustus), the former prime minister of Iceland, the former vice-chancellor of Germany, Barny Frank, etc.), artistic (long long list) nor scientific. The Nazis were the exception (nice bed fellows, no?) I was fired by a "born again" interim boss - she basically ruined my life - and she did it in the name of her "Christian" religion. I know that there are other Christians - in fact, I used to be a member of Dignity (google it).
Furthermore, since Oklahoma is the US state with the most native Americans in the country, why don't you once in a while have a native American governor? Prejudice? Bias? Hot button? seems so to me

Scratch:I wonder if one would have said the same if Esperantists had marched in the Civil Rights Protests of the 60s and 70s. That was surely a controversial topic.

I sure would like to hope that the Esperantists of that time were largely on the side of civil rights. I sure would like to hope that the Esperantists of this time are also largely on the side of civil rights.

If an Esperanto-speaking group dedicated to civil rights had marched in such protests, that would have been no different from any organization dedicated to a particular purpose furthering their causes--no problem there. And honestly, while we're comparing apples to oranges here (homosexual behavior and skin color are totally different things), if an Esperanto-speaking group dedicated to the homosexual agenda attended some "gay pride" event, that would be completely in line with the stated objectives of THAT PARTICULAR organization--not that of Esperantists in general.

For a couple of guys to presume to speak for all Esperantists in their country by carrying signs at a "gay pride" march declaring that their national Esperanto community supports the homosexual agenda is practically Orwellian. Those who do NOT support it would think Esperantists in general DID.

This would be no different than having Esperantists show up at Nazi Youth rally with signs saying their local Esperanto community supports National Socialism, or having Esperantists at a feminist event carrying signs saying their national Esperanto community supports the "right" of a woman to seek partial-birth abortion. Or what about carrying signs at a pro-marijuana event saying "the national Esperanto community supports legalizing pot"? These are all extremely controversial issues about which people understandably have strong feelings--and Esperantists can jolly well make up their own minds as to how they feel about them--and they (we) don't need people making it look like just because we're Esperantists, then we agree with their views.

But back to our issue--what's really of concern here is how Esperanto is being represented to the community at large. It's not at all an issue of "you should think this" or "you should support that". Esperanto has taken a real hit in recent years to such an extent that people who DO know about it (relatively few) associate it with the kind of foolishness and agendized extremism we're talking about in this thread.

robbkvasnak:Maybe in Oklahoma being out is a hot-button issue.

We're not talking about "being out"--we're talking about Esperantists from their national group making it look like their entire community is in agreement with the objectives of the homosexual/transgendered segment of their society. Not only is that incredibly presumptuous, but it creates a false association between Esperanto and the homosexual/transgendered agenda. If homosexuality were as much of a non-issue as you would like to portray it to be, then they wouldn't be having "gay pride" marches to further their cause.

And the "issue" with being gay is always "religious"

Oh, Baloney, it isn't either. Even teenagers can figure out the "plumbing" issues of basic human biology and question it--and many naturally do. There are literally HOARDES of totally secular people and "not-especially-religious" people who have exactly the same concerns about homosexuality as typical Evangelicals and Pentecostals, minus the Biblical teaching on the matter. The problem is, you're so brimming with hatred and intolerance for religion that you can't see straight.

Look--I neither need to know (nor do I care) how you behave sexually. Just as you don't want my religious views shoved down your throat, I don't want to hear about your sexual proclivities, either. I mentioned the "gay pride" march as only one example of the way the Esperanto community constantly makes itself look like it's all about sex, distasteful "locker room" humor, and aberrant social/political interests--and they seemingly do it by making a point of shoving these things into the foreground and highlighting them--to the almost total exclusion of things that society at large would truly respect, find purposeful, and possibly even invest in. That's just my opinion---you're entitled to yours as well.

Furthermore, since Oklahoma is the US state with the most native Americans in the country, why don't you once in a while have a native American governor? Prejudice? Bias? Hot button? seems so to me

So why did you bring this up, Robb? What's it got to do with anything...and who cares? But to answer your question, perhaps it's the fact that being Indian is such a non-issue here that nobody even notices, cares, or thinks to question it one way or the other. Come to think of it, there has never been a black governor here either---that DOESN'T automatically equate with discrimination.

Trust me, if the Indian population of this state ever decided to ignore qualifications, positions on issues, experience, and everything else that really matters and throw all of their support behind some man just because he's Indian, they could easily do that--but how insulting to THEM to think they would! My own wife is of native American extraction, Robb--if she were ever to run for governor, the last thing on earth anybody would care about if they voted against her would be her Indian heritage.

Polaris:This would be no different than having Esperantists show up at Nazi Youth rally with signs saying their local Esperanto community supports National Socialism

Godwin's Law has just been demonstrated in this thread.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

I don't think that equalling gay pride marches to nazi youth rallies is helping to promote Esperanto...

Polaris:[...] carrying signs at a "gay pride" march declaring that their national Esperanto community supports the homosexual agenda is practically Orwellian. [...]

This would be no different than having Esperantists show up at Nazi Youth rally with signs saying their local Esperanto community supports National Socialism, [...]

I am still astonished that you actually wrote this. You are exhibit A of those Malborough Baptist Church lernu users, I mentioned in another thread. No matter what your actual church is called.

Polaris:(homosexual behavior and skin color are totally different things)

Er.. they are both traits people like you and me are born with. Being heterosexual is not deviant. It is the way some people are born. Being pale and freckly is not a condition that needs to be cured. Being born a woman shouldn't carry a sentence. If societies weren't so full of groups (religious or secular) who have decided that being born a certain way is a sin to be punished, avoided, or at least hidden from our children, there'd be no need for a friggin' parade.

Personally, I may never march in a pride rally as is our example, but I am not embarrassed that some Esperanto group decided to support equal rights. If people in general even give a sh!# enough to associate me with that because I also know a little Eo, well I guess I can deal with it.

If a few bigots are turned off.. well..

vejktoro:

Polaris:(homosexual behavior and skin color are totally different things)

Er.. they are both traits people like you and me are born with.

+1