I think you are confusing my posts with someone elses - I wrote nothing about discrimination. Nor have I made any concrete statements regarding what Todd will or will not like. I only pointed out that if Esperanto indeed wants to go mainstream (something I'm not sure can actually be stated quite so simply) it probably needs to appeal to the mainstream.

So, you tell me. What won't scare Todd? Because as a guide to answering the question "How should we present Esperanto to the general public?", it seems a relatively decent one to consider.

RiotNrrd:I think you are confusing my posts with someone elses - I wrote nothing about discrimination. Nor have I made any concrete statements regarding what Todd will or will not like. I only pointed out that if Esperanto indeed wants to go mainstream (something I'm not sure can actually be stated quite so simply) it probably needs to appeal to the mainstream.

So, you tell me. What won't scare Todd? Because as a guide to answering the question "How should we present Esperanto to the general public?", it seems a relatively decent one to consider.

I think that if we remove everything that might scare Todd, Ansgar or Juan we will end up with an empty agenda and will quite quickly fade into non-existence.
Haters gonna hate. No matter what you put on your agenda, someone will hate it.
As I have written in the other thread (the one related to this one in Esperanto), I think the decision how Esperanto should be presented, depends mostly on which kind of persons we want to attract. Maybe human rights could be a starting point on which everybody could partially agree? Maybe humanism? Maybe not being jerks? I don't know either.

Some points I would put onto this agenda, and this is my very personal opinion, might include: dignity and freedom.

Christa627: And as long as people are people, they will have different strongly-held positions, and think that others are objectively wrong. It isn't the job of Esperanto to take sides in these controversies. If a vegan speaks Esperanto, and is publicly characterised by both Esperantism and veganism, that is not the same as saying "Esperanto is the language of vegans. It's not about whether or not homosexuality, the Tea Party, and Naziism are similar in any way! It's about the fact that people should not claim that the Esperanto community as a whole supports this or that lifestyle or ideology, or say things that give that impression, because it isn't true! The Esperanto community is made up of all kinds of people, although the ratio may be different than that of the overall world population, and we all need to realise that one group's views do not necessarily represent those of all Esperantujo.

I think the spark that set all this off was Polaris's fear of somehow being associated with supporting gay rights because a small Eo group lent their support; and from there scare of other potential esperanto speakers who, like him, do not wish to be associated with this or that.

He has a bit of a point.. and we all get it, it does not need to be explained again. He wants the language Eo to remain politically neutral and let individuals do as they will.

BUT, and this is big. Gay rights is the same as human rights. Homosexuality is not a decision, like what diet you choose for yourself (a first world luxury), it isn't political, it isn't left or right. Scratch's comparison to the civil rights marches of the 60s and 70s was dead on. They marched because those people were born with hair and skin a certain way and were pushed to the sidelines because of it. IT IS NO DIFFERENT WITH GAYS! They march in the face of bigotry and prejudice. There is right and wrong, and Polaris, you are wrong. It is wrong to marginalize or look down on these people because of the way they were born. It is wrong to judge them as immoral or somehow not as pure or proper or whatever.

It IS as unacceptable as racism. I am proud to be associated with the Philippino group against discrimination... in fact, to do otherwise would be to support discrimination. The same as supporting the segregation of the black man. That is not a 'Nazi' sized comparison, I mean this very seriously.

At that point Polaris, your argument breaks down and your character is called into question.

Esperanto holds equality at its heart. It is the hope of equality. If people of a certain mindset are turned of by this.. well maybe they aren't ready for Esperanto.

vejktoro:

Christa627: And as long as people are people, they will have different strongly-held positions, and think that others are objectively wrong. It isn't the job of Esperanto to take sides in these controversies. If a vegan speaks Esperanto, and is publicly characterised by both Esperantism and veganism, that is not the same as saying "Esperanto is the language of vegans. It's not about whether or not homosexuality, the Tea Party, and Naziism are similar in any way! It's about the fact that people should not claim that the Esperanto community as a whole supports this or that lifestyle or ideology, or say things that give that impression, because it isn't true! The Esperanto community is made up of all kinds of people, although the ratio may be different than that of the overall world population, and we all need to realise that one group's views do not necessarily represent those of all Esperantujo.

I think the spark that set all this off was Polaris's fear of somehow being associated with supporting gay rights because a small Eo group lent their support; and from there scare of other potential esperanto speakers who, like him, do not wish to be associated with this or that.

He has a bit of a point.. and we all get it, it does not need to be explained again. He wants the language Eo to remain politically neutral and let individuals do as they will.

BUT, and this is big. Gay rights is the same as human rights. Homosexuality is not a decision, like what diet you choose for yourself (a first world luxury), it isn't political, it isn't left or right. Scratch's comparison to the civil rights marches of the 60s and 70s was dead on. They marched because those people were born with hair and skin a certain way and were pushed to the sidelines because of it. IT IS NO DIFFERENT WITH GAYS! They march in the face of bigotry and prejudice. There is right and wrong, and Polaris, you are wrong. It is wrong to marginalize or look down on these people because of the way they were born. It is wrong to judge them as immoral or somehow not as pure or proper or whatever.

It IS as unacceptable as racism. I am proud to be associated with the Philippino group against discrimination... in fact, to do otherwise would be to support discrimination. The same as supporting the segregation of the black man. That is not a 'Nazi' sized comparison, I mean this very seriously.

At that point Polaris, your argument breaks down and your character is called into question.

Esperanto holds equality at its heart. It is the hope of equality. If people of a certain mindset are turned of by this.. well maybe they aren't ready for Esperanto.

+1

-forigite-

Noren, I simply can't believe you are actually going so far as to go get comments I made in Esperanto on a completely different site and interjecting them into this conversation. I've heard of obsessively fixating on minor details before, but WOW!...that's about in line for the prize, Pal. You DO realize, don't you, that my mentioning of the Esperantists at the "gay pride" march was only one small facet of the overall picture here--just one example (out of several) of inappropriate and uncalled-for activity that (along with everything else that was mentioned) could color public attention against the Esperanto movement?

nornen:About the gay pride march "incident":

Polaris cxe Libera Folio:Ŝajnas al mi tre pretendema diri “La Esperanto-komunumo de Filipinoj subtenas la GLAT-movadon”. "La komunumo"? Se du activuloj el la Esperanto-movado elektas agi laŭ samseksemula vivstilo, tio estas sia propra, privata afero. Tamen, ili ne rajtas paroli en la nomo de la tuta komunumo. Ci tio donis la misimpreson ke ekzistas ligilo inter la Esperanto-movado kaj samseksemeco, kaj tio nepre estas erara kaj malvera. Se kelke da Mormonoj aŭ Katolikoj aliĝus marŝadon kaj proklamus ke "la Esperanto-komunumo subtenas nian eklesion!", estus ĝuste?

Okay, Noren, the rules of the forum explicitly state that if you write in Esperanto here, you need to supply a translation. With that in mind, I'll re-write this quote in English. On Libera Folio, in the comments section of an article about this matter, I said:

"It seems quite presumptuous to me to say "The Phillipine Esperanto Community Supports the Gay/Lesbian/Transgendered movement". "The community"? If a couple of activists from the Esperanto movement choose to behave in accordance with the homosexual lifestyle, that is their own, private business. However, they have no right to speak on behalf of the entire community. This gave the false impression that a link exists between the Esperanto movement and homosexuality, and that is absolutely incorrect and untrue. If several Mormons or Catholics joined a march and proclaimed that "the Esperanto community supports our church!", would that be right?"

...well, WOULD IT?

The sign said "Eo-komunumo de Filipinoj". The FEJA has four members, out of which two attended the event, so yes: at least 50% of the FEJA supports GLAT rights."

So what? How does that change a thing? The whole thrust of this (as well as the other points I mentioned: I.E., passing out condoms at youth events; that disgusting, distasteful song; making a point of having congresses in Communist countries, etc.), is that the Esperanto movement is characterized by these things TO THE VIRTUAL EXCLUSION OF purposeful, respectful pursuits that would garner the respect and favorable regard of the community at large (as opposed to their scorn).

Apparently the FEJA is the only Eo community or association in the Philippines (http://eo.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landaj_asocioj_de_UEA...). So I cannot see anything wrong with this sign... He didn't say that the Oklahoma-Eo-Community supported GLAT. He only spoke on behalf of himself and the other three organized Philippines esperantists.

ALL THE MORE REASON why they should be watching their public image and presenting themselves as respectable, scholarly promoters of a language solution in an effort to bring society in general on board with them, not presenting themselves as activists for controversial causes that could turn a lot of people away while they make it look like Esperanto and the homosexual agenda are somehow tied together.

His local Eo-group shares also the basic principles of the world wide TEJO:

TEJO kontraŭas diskriminacion rilate al nacieco, raso, sekso, seksa orientiĝo, handikapeco, religio, politiko, socia deveno kaj lingvo.

Kiam oni kontraŭas diskriminacion, estas devige subteni la rajtojn de diskriminaciatoj.
So if anyone is to blame for the participation in a gay rights event, it is the members of TEJO who adopted these principles against discrimination.

AMAXZINGLY creative fantasy tie-in. First of all, TEJO saying they oppose discrimination against this or that DOES NOT in ANY way, shape, or form obligate showing active support for controversial causes. TEJO ALSO says that they don't approve of religious discrimination---so should Esperantists show up at church rallies carrying signs proclaiming "the Esperanto community of __________ supports the church" How about marching at the Vatican with signs proclaiming "The ____________ Esperanto Community Venerates Our Lady of Esperantujo?? They are opposed to political discrimination, as well: does that constitute an excuse to show up at Tea Party rallies, Democratic Socialist speeches, candidate forums, or the Republican National Convention carrying signs declaring "the _________ Esperanto Community supports..."

Actually, I think that we will organize a group for Esperanto at the local Gay Pride parade this June in Witon Manors. It is very acceptable here and many, many het families come with their kids (in strollers) to catch beads. We do not live in a very homogeneous area - my block looks like an NGO at the UN. It will be fun! And for a few bucks we can rent a booth and hand out info on Esperanto. Here, the mayor is gay, and all of commissioners are gay as well as the mayor of the adjacent city and many of commissioners. Many state politicians participate because they want the gay vote 9about 27% of our area). The firemen march, the policemen march, the Red cross marches, why shouldn't we?
Great idea, Polaris! thanks!
but after having read the demographics of your area I agree. It would be best if you had some virgins (with chastity certificates), all WASPS, participate. maybe you could distribute tickets to quicker entrance into heaven if the people learn Esperanto. Or just translate that lead song to the musical into E: Oooooooooo - Oklahomo kie pluvas forte sur la plan'......

Polaris:If several Mormons or Catholics joined a march and proclaimed that "the Esperanto community supports our church!", would that be right?"

...well, WOULD IT?

Sure. If such and such a group does support such and such a thing then I guess they should have every right to declare it. Why shouldn't they be allowed to support your church if they support it?

I have no idea what the 'homosexual agenda' is that you speak of, I guess they are all up to something that will bring the downfall of your society - but I guess if you want to get a group together and decide to go about proclaiming that the Esperanto group of where ever you're from doesn't like the gays, then that is up to you. We can't stop you.

You can probably have a sign for anti-racism too.. sounds up your alley.

Best of luck with that.

robbkvasnak:Actually, I think that we will organize a group for Esperanto at the local Gay Pride parade this June in Witon Manors.
Great idea, Polaris! thanks!

Brilliant.

Polaris:"It seems quite presumptuous to me to say "The Phillipine Esperanto Community Supports the Gay/Lesbian/Transgendered movement". "The community"? If a couple of activists from the Esperanto movement choose to behave in accordance with the homosexual lifestyle, that is their own, private business. However, they have no right to speak on behalf of the entire community. This gave the false impression that a link exists between the Esperanto movement and homosexuality, and that is absolutely incorrect and untrue. If several Mormons or Catholics joined a march and proclaimed that "the Esperanto community supports our church!", would that be right?"

It was proclaimed at the Gay Pride parade that the Esperanto movement is supporting the LGBT movement in their cause of contending for freedom of sexual orientation and sexual identity.

If Mormons or Catholics proclaim somewhere, that the Esperanto movement is supporting their cause of contending for religious freedom, no problem to me. Maybe I would even participate proclaiming that the Esperanto is also supporting my freedom to be an agnosticist.