vejktoro:He has a bit of a point

To put it charitably, yes. But fixating yourself upon a seemingly legitimate issue and leveraging it to spew garden variety prejudice and bigotry upon the readership is a questionable tactic, and detracts from anything positive or worthwhile there may be in his "argument".

vejktoro:"If a few bigots are turned off.. well..".

Hit the nail square on the head there. +1

Polaris:I'll say it again--we need to have the self-respect to change the way we represent ourselves to society

Change starts at home. I suggest you get on with it.

...we need to have the self-respect to change the way we represent ourselves to society

The following should be read in a neutral, non-aggressive way. Since this is the internet, I am sure someone will be offended, and I have no idea who it will be since my comment is not directed towards anyone in mind.

Honestly, I don't care how I represent Esperanto. I am just learning it because I think it is cool, and I think it has a lot of potential. I also don't care who else learns it, whether they are deviants or criminals or whatever. Even if Satan learns Esperanto then I don't care. Just my thoughts.

Completely unrelated to anything previously discussed:

As I have viewed this thread on my laptop and a tablet, I wonder why se has a different profile pic depending on which device I'm using?

vejktoro:
I think the spark that set all this off was Polaris's fear of somehow being associated with supporting gay rights because a small Eo group lent their support; and from there scare of other potential esperanto speakers who, like him, do not wish to be associated with this or that.

Actually, Vejktoro, that was only a very small part of the overall whole. What concerns me is that (and I'm starting to feel like a broken record) Esperanto needs to change the face it shows to the world at large in order to garner the respect and the favorable regard of the rest of the rest of society. If the first thing people think of when they think of Esperanto is an international language that is allowing people to earn college credit, share practical and purposeful material across international (and language-related) lines, multi-national humanitarian relief, business, etc., then people are going to be more apt to see it as a legitimate, worthwhile pursuit. Instead, few people know about Esperanto--and due to the actions (and antics) of some in the movement, those who do could associate E-o with sexual debauchery, political extremes, and aberrant causes. You, for some strange reason that I don't quite understand, have focused on NOTHING other than my objection to a national Esperanto organization attending a "gay pride" march and saying that their national organization supported the homosexual/transgendered agenda. I do STRENUOUSLY object to that--it was wrong-headed, presumptuous, and very off-putting and uncalled-for, but it was hardly the only thing I mentioned.

BUT, and this is big. Gay rights is the same as human rights. Homosexuality is not a decision, like what diet you choose for yourself (a first world luxury), it isn't political, it isn't left or right. Scratch's comparison to the civil rights marches of the 60s and 70s was dead on. They marched because those people were born with hair and skin a certain way and were pushed to the sidelines because of it. IT IS NO DIFFERENT WITH GAYS! They march in the face of bigotry and prejudice.

I have avoided responding to this because I have no intention whatsoever of turning this thread into a debate about the legitimacy or lack thereof of homosexuality. You are entitled to believe and say what you will. You need to understand, however, that this is only your unsubstantiated opinion: No "gay gene" or natural biological explanation has ever been found for homosexuality, despite years of concerted scientific research attempting to locate one--in fact, identical twins with identical genetic make up may have opposite sexual preferences. I will not debate with you regarding this point in this thread--I'm merely pointing out that there are solid reasons to, at the very least, question your blanket, categorical statements--reasons that do not involve "discrimination" and have nothing to do with "civil rights". Whereever you come down on this issue, you have the right to look at the facts and make up your mind---you have NO right to foist your conclusions on everybody else as the only acceptable view--which is why it is wrong to presume that position for Esperanto.

There is right and wrong, and Polaris, you are wrong. It is wrong to marginalize or look down on these people because of the way they were born. It is wrong to judge them as immoral or somehow not as pure or proper or whatever.

Well, I think you're wrong---so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Nobody said a WORD about "marginalizing" or "looking down on" anybody. But even if you feel your cause is noble, you still are not entitled to create a false association between your views and another entity.
I have very strong feelings about partial-birth abortion--as a "prom-night baby" who was placed for adoption at birth (thank God) by a birth mother who recognized that I had a right to life, I find proponents of partial-birth abortion only slightly less barbaric and sub-human than someone like Jack the Ripper---yet I would never dream of getting a group of Esperantists together at a pro-life event proclaiming "the __________ Esperanto Community supports the right to life" for the reasons I've mentioned.

At that point Polaris, your argument breaks down and your character is called into question.

Well, you can question my character all you want...no one cares. But if you spend your life "questioning the character" of everybody whose views clash with yours, you're going to wind up becoming one terribly bigotted, judgmental, and intolerant individual.

Esperanto holds equality at its heart...If people of a certain mindset are turned of by this.. well maybe they aren't ready for Esperanto.

Even equality for people who do not accept your views of homosexuality? Equality for religious people to speak their minds on issues that are important to them without people taking potshots at them? Be careful what you wish for.

vejktoro:

Polaris:If several Mormons or Catholics joined a march and proclaimed that "the Esperanto community supports our church!", would that be right?"

...well, WOULD IT?

Sure. If such and such a group does support such and such a thing then I guess they should have every right to declare it. Why shouldn't they be allowed to support your church if they support it?

If a group of Catholic Esperantists or "Esperanto-Speaking LDS" or even "Esperanto Atheists"...or whatever...did something like this, I would not be concerned. Where I part company is when groups say they are representing the Esperanto community at large, yet then take public positions in controversial political, religious, or social matters and make it look as though that cause is part and parcel to the movement as a whole. Ditto for distasteful, locker-room "humor" at major Esperanto gatherings.

You can probably have a sign for anti-racism too.. sounds up your alley.

I'm not so dewy-eyed that I don't realize that you intended that as a personal attack, but just for your information: I learned to speak fluent Spanish hanging out with Mexicans, I married an Indian, and I raised a boy who was black---see what a racist I am? I know that this may be extremely hard for you to wrap your brain around or even conceptualize, but try--- Someone really can hold to a view that differs from yours--EVEN REGARDING HOMOSEXUALITY--and yet still be a good person. Your opinion may seem like absolute truth to you---but good-hearted people may differ with you---that doesn't mean they're not nice people.

Polaris:Actually, Vejktoro, that was only a very small part of the overall whole. What concerns me is that (and I'm starting to feel like a broken record) Esperanto needs to change the face it shows to the world at large in order to garner the respect and the favorable regard of the rest of the rest of society. If the first thing people think of when they think of Esperanto is an international language that is allowing people to earn college credit, share practical and purposeful material across international (and language-related) lines, multi-national humanitarian relief, business, etc., then people are going to be more apt to see it as a legitimate, worthwhile pursuit. Instead, few people know about Esperanto--and due to the actions (and antics) of some in the movement, those who do could associate E-o with sexual debauchery, political extremes, and aberrant causes.

Yes, I think we got it. Your concern is, that by the actions, that you mention here, the reputation Esperanto is deteriorating and thus the alledged mission of Esperanto to become an international language is failing.

This discussion is not new.

What strikes me is, that you object with people speaking on behalf of "the Esperanto community" while you use the word "we" all the time. Who is that "we"? The whole Esperanto movement? The finvenkist subgroup of the Esperanto movement?

To many Esperantists Esperanto in the first place is the cultural environment they live in. Major Esperanto events like IJK are a platform to live that culture. Part of that culture is music and musical parody like "Mola", whether you like it or not. They, maybe I should say "we", just don't care that Bob and Jane from Oklahoma choose not to learn Esperanto because they don't like the songs we sing.

So if you want to make Bob and Jane learn Esperanto, you are free to sing the songs that they like to them. Setup a blog or a podcast or a journal whatever and preach your family values in Esperanto. Get in contact with family oriented people from Europe, Asia, wherever and feature them. They also merit to be part of the Esperanto movement. Maybe you discourage Michaela, Phillipa and Olaf, the transgender-homosexual-polyamorous triple from Berlin/Paris/Stockholm by that, but don't worry. We take care of them.

Esperanto being intercultural means, that every culture is to have a voice in it. Not that every cultures voice is to be forbidden in order to not discourage other cultures. That might be difficult for close minded people, but those we woudn't get anyway.

vejktoro:Homosexuality is not a decision, like what diet you choose for yourself (a first world luxury), it isn't political, it isn't left or right.

+1

That there may not be (or at least, we have not yet found) a specific "gay gene" does not detract from the significant genetic contribution toward predisposition to being gay - now well established within the scientific community. And in any case it's simply delusional to beleive everything can be explained by genetics.

But of course we all know why homophobes like to pretend being gay is a lifestyle choice rather than something innate in people: it makes it easier to attack them, and the so called "homosexual agenda" - an appalling term redolent of the kind of prejudice that deserves to be spurned by all who encounter it.

I personally have no problem if a group of Esperantists fly the green flag at a gay march. The false association this might create in the mind of the public between Esperanto and support of gay rights is minimal at best, so to me it's nothing to worry about. Unless you happen to be hung up about gays...

It's all very simple. Esperanto has an image problem. And that's not wholly due to its 'artificiality', but also tied up with the the sort of people who learn Esperanto.

Esperanto can't go mainstream all the time that the Esperanto-speaking community is a cosy club for the eccentric and the socially marginal, however worthy and politically correct you think their opinions are.

It's difficult to see how the world can take Esperanto seriously until it is normal for it to be spoken by serious people with a normal range of life-style preferences, political views, whatever.

Far better to advertise that Esperanto is spoken by clever well-educated people, than to convey the message that if you are a gay vegan astrologer homeopath nudist leftwing spiritualist then you are very welcome in the Esperanto community.

There's only one political view that Esperanto should be associated with and that is the rationalist position that it has merits as a solution to the Babel problem.

sudanglo:Far better to advertise that Esperanto is spoken by clever well-educated people, than to convey the message that if you are a gay vegan astrologer homeopath nudist leftwing spiritualist then you are very welcome in the Esperanto community.

Again: So where is your blog, podcast, youtube channel, whatever featuring clever well educated people? I am waiting for your submissions to Scienca Revuo.

You can't change the world -- not even the image of Esperanto -- by talking and critisizing, but only by doing something. And don't say that "we collectively" need to decide what to do and then do it. Thas will not happen before the fina venko and probably not even after it.

sudanglo:Esperanto can't go mainstream all the time that the Esperanto-speaking community is a cosy club for the eccentric and the socially marginal, however worthy and politically correct you think their opinions are.

It's difficult to see how the world can take Esperanto seriously until it is normal for it to be spoken by serious people with a normal range of life-style preferences, political views, whatever.

Far better to advertise that Esperanto is spoken by clever well-educated people, than to convey the message that if you are a gay vegan astrologer homeopath nudist leftwing spiritualist then you are very welcome in the Esperanto community.

Don't be such dinosaurs lads.. you're never going to be hip as long as you hold on to these square ideas.
Keep up.
Cutting edge is where ya gotta be....

That is, if we are talking about getting anywhere.