sudanglo:Far better to advertise that Esperanto is spoken by clever well-educated people, than to convey the message that if you are a gay vegan astrologer homeopath nudist leftwing spiritualist then you are very welcome in the Esperanto community.

Personally I feel the better approach is to advertise Esperanto for exactly what it is. If that means being open about the fact there are statistical biases within the community towards certain political/sexual/religious persuasion, well... so be it. The would-be Esperantist is going to find out about these things at some point anyway. Trying to cover up your demographic makeup doesn't really strike me as an effective way to bring in new recruits.

But I would echo johmue's question. If you feel the image of Esperanto is too gay or too leftie or too weird, or whatever it may be, what action do you propose to remedy this? And what if anything are you doing about it?

tommjames:If you feel the image of Esperanto is too gay or too leftie or too weird, or whatever it may be, what action do you propose to remedy this?

Maybe, they can encourage more Church groups to speak Esperanto to balance it out.

Tom:Trying to cover up your demographic makeup doesn't really strike me as an effective way to bring in new recruits.

But flaunting the 'demographic make-up' is a very effective way of scaring off those we want to attract.

If there is any theoretical dogma that Esperanto "supports" is it the Interna Ideo - for a good intro to this see the Esperanto-language entry in Vikipedio under Homaranismo. (The English version is not very complete). That is probably why Nazis and Nationalists do not support Esperanto. In fact, the Nazis interned the Esperantists and killed them (along with the family of Zamenhof). I have no fear that such groups will propagate Esperanto. It is contrary to their ideals.
If on the other hand religious groups propagate Esperanto, this is a fine thing. It will lead those people to wider more tolerant view of the world, a world in which different people with different ideas can communicate on a neutral background - you don't have to know the more of one specific country to master Esperanto - whereas English is based in English culture and its variants.
I find it interesting that the Mormons, who have really great language courses for their followers, don't have an Esperanto section. I do not particularly like the politics of the Utah Mormons but I would be glad if they did include Esperanto. It would give our developing language a new facet.
As for the gay agenda: in our house the "gay agenda" consists of who does the dishes, who takes the trash out, who waters the garden, when does my hubby have a day off so we can go to the beach, when do we pay our property taxes, etc. Our "agenda" is not really very different from the agendas in most homes. We do not go out trying to get anyone else to be gay or lesbian. Nature seems to do a pretty good job of that on her or his own. None of our straight neighbors have gotten a divorce since we got married. They still say hello to us in the streets and we exchange Christmas cards and bring each other samples of food we make. I have not seen any breakdown in society since Florida declared same-sex marriage legal - nor did that happen in Brazil over 4 years ago for the same. In our local Esperanto club, everybody knows that Ed and I are together and that bothers nobody at all. The straight couples in the E club still love each other as much as before. We visit each other without any problems. One of our members is an evangelical christian but she isn't bothered by me being with Ed. Really, it just takes a little bit of "homaranismo" and there you have a peaceful society.

sudanglo:But flaunting the 'demographic make-up' is a very effective way of scaring off those we want to attract.

I don't know whom you're referring to with "we" but I assume you mean people who hold out hope for the fina venko, or at least "mainstream acceptance" of Esperanto. In which case count me out for one. There is no requirement on speakers of Esperanto to remain in a kind of pathetic false hope for something that, by any reasonable estimate, is never going to happen. It's presumptuous to suppose otherwise.

Anyway I don't share the view that being something of a haven for minorities is what's keeping Esperanto in the shadows. It probably has an effect but it doesn't seem like that effect would be easy to quantify, if indeed it can be quantified at all. In any case I would suspect it's not as great as you seem to think it is.

The main reason Esperanto remains on the fringe is there isn't any reason for it not to be. The world does not feel the need for an IAL (regardless of whether there actually is a need), there is massive momentum behind English and the many industries that depend on the "Babel situation". Even if Esperanto were not viewed as a hobby for cranks it would still have very little chance of success, so bemoaning the number of gays and vegans and whatnot seems to me to be at best really missing the real issue, and at worst simply an indicator of prejudice, and possibly arrogance.

robbkvasnak:
I find it interesting that the Mormons, who have really great language courses for their followers, don't have an Esperanto section. I do not particularly like the politics of the Utah Mormons but I would be glad if they did include Esperanto. It would give our developing language a new facet.

I did once stumble across a Mormon website in Esperanto, but I don't have the link on hand.

Polaris:

You can probably have a sign for anti-racism too.. sounds up your alley.

I'm not so dewy-eyed that I don't realize that you intended that as a personal attack, but just for your information: I learned to speak fluent Spanish hanging out with Mexicans, I married an Indian, and I raised a boy who was black---see what a racist I am? I know that this may be extremely hard for you to wrap your brain around or even conceptualize, but try--- Someone really can hold to a view that differs from yours--EVEN REGARDING HOMOSEXUALITY--and yet still be a good person. Your opinion may seem like absolute truth to you---but good-hearted people may differ with you---that doesn't mean they're not nice people.

Sorry Polaris, alas, the comment was not to accuse you of racism. I thought I had read an anti-racism post by you and it stuck. Maybe it was somebody else. You are right that as I pontificated, I was using you, and the attitudes you present as the nemesis.

In any case. Your little attack is ignored.

My comment was to stress that I believe that this or that certain group can post any placard of support they wish, no matter how ridiculous... there is nothing we can do about it. And, at the same time, equate the stance you've presented against certain people of the planet with something just as unfair (the common fearing/ being jealous of the exception.)

I see that you do not see the views you earlier expressed as being or leading to discrimination of a large section of humanity. To much of us it is discrimination, and most people can't stand it. I will always speak against it, no matter what 'small part' it plays in the paragraph.

You hijacked your own post with an example most of us just can't get past. There are definitely people in your very own community, church, or even congregation who are not completely male or female in terms of orientation but have to suffer a hetero-sexual facade, or sever ties with family because of a culture that hasn't caught up. Must be excruciating trying to consolidate an artificial judgement with what they know inside. I am now to understand that you take the position that such people have 'chosen' this torment.

But yes, that belongs in another thread.

vejktoro:
My comment was to stress that I believe that this or that certain group can post any placard of support they wish, no matter how ridiculous... there is nothing we can do about it. And, at the same time, equate the stance you've presented against certain people of the planet with something just as unfair (the common fearing/ being jealous of the exception.)

Vejktoro, I actually could care less what placards people carry, what groups they are with, or even what they choose to do with their Esperanto--I just don't want them to presume to speak for the entire movement in their locale and make it appear that Esperanto is associated with their causes. And yes, people DO have the freedom to advocate for whatever position they choose--as you said, "no matter how ridiculous". I wasn't taking a stand against anybody. I object to someone adopting a stance and then trying to generalize it as the only acceptable "party line" for the entire movement regarding controversial issues.

I have very strong, passionate feelings about certain issues myself--and, quite frankly, I DO feel that my views on some issues are the only legitimate, morally defensible positions that anybody with an ounce of decency would subscribe to--and that everybody else is wrong. I've already mentioned my stance against partial-birth abortion as an example. I'm sure you feel the same way about your own views with regard to homosexual behavior. However, I'm sure a lot of people wouldn't appreciate me attending a pro-life rally with signs proclaiming "The American Esperanto community is proudly pro-life and opposes butchering babies as they come out of the womb!"

I AM NOT OPPOSED to a politically extreme group using Esperanto--or even carrying signs saying the (fill-in-the-blank-with-a-cause ) Esperantists Support (insert group effort here)!!! as long as they make it clear that they are speaking for their own group, not for every Esperantist in their area. I have no problem with that at all. I AM opposed to blanket over-generalizations of those views being presented to the public as though they were part and parcel of the Esperanto movement, such as--by saying "the (local area/nation, etc.) Esperanto community supports (insert controversial issue here)".

The other thing I take strong exception to is the showcasing of bawdy, distasteful, or sexually "dirty" humor in the name of the Esperanto community. Look at the "Mola" song--complete with the Esperanto version of the "F" word, it describes someone's efforts to get a someone she just met erect...and that got performed on stage, sent out on You Tube, and was presented as part of the Esperanto community to the world. Then we wonder why people roll their eyes at us and dismissively pass us off as a childish bunch of kooks.

To me, this is common sense--it's just like a business. If I tried to open a daycare in a seedy, crime-ridden neighborhood with a tattoo parlour on one side, a porn shop on the other, a meth lab next door, right across the street from a biker gang turf, few mothers (if any) would choose to bring their children. I'd go broke if I had the attitude of "WELL!--If they're so bigotted and judgmental that they can't just accept where I chose to open my daycare, then they can just go someplace else! I have the right to open my facility whereever I want!" Public perception matters.

Not everybody is going to be attracted to our movement as a participant--realistically, not everybody has the mindset or interest for teaching himself a language out of a book or from the computer. But if we want to be taken seriously in society and win the favorable esteem of the community at large (whether or not they become Esperantists), then we need to earn that respect...that's all I'm saying.

Polaris:The other thing I take strong exception to is the showcasing of bawdy, distasteful, or sexually "dirty" humor in the name of the Esperanto community. Look at the "Mola" song--complete with the Esperanto version of the "F" word, it describes someone's efforts to get a someone she just met erect...and that got performed on stage, sent out on You Tube, and was presented as part of the Esperanto community to the world. Then we wonder why people roll their eyes at us and dismissively pass us off as a childish bunch of kooks.

What do you mean by showcasing? Who is using it for showcasing puposes? The song was performed a couple of times on stage on Esperanto events. "Sola" is part of the Esperanto culture. So people make parody of it and perform it on stage. I guess the performence found on youtube was performed on "Internacia Vespero". That's a traditional evening event on congresses like IJK, where people are performing all kinds of stuff on stage more or less spontaneously. Somebody filmed it and put it on Youtube. In what way is that "showcasing"? Should it be forbidden? Censored? Who is to decide what is allowed and what not?

IMO the performance of this song is quite bad and also the video itself. Therefore I don't use it as showcase material. There is so much better stuff around. Checkout my own Esperanto music videos. Maybe you like them better.

By the way, where are your contributions?

Actually the perfomance of "Mola" by Kim himself and Martin Wiese at FESTO 2013 in Kelmis, Belgium was much better than the one you find on Youtube. The whole concert was great. I had the pleasure to be on site.

Polaris:The other thing I take strong exception to is the showcasing of bawdy, distasteful, or sexually "dirty" humor in the name of the Esperanto community. Look at the "Mola" song--complete with the Esperanto version of the "F" word, it describes someone's efforts to get a someone she just met erect...and that got performed on stage, sent out on You Tube, and was presented as part of the Esperanto community to the world. Then we wonder why people roll their eyes at us and dismissively pass us off as a childish bunch of kooks.

You need to understand that not everybody is as prudish as you. In fact, I would say that in this day and age the perception of that song as 'disgusting' and 'dirty' would be the exception rather than the rule.

In any case if you really want Esperanto to "come out of the shadows" then it needs to be a real language that encompasses the full range of human expression. That includes things like sexual innuendo and dick jokes. Nobody in their right mind is going to think the Esperanto community is a bunch of deviants just because someone made a vaguely smutty song and sang it at a youth congress.