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What colour did you paint the walls?

de sudanglo, 2015-februaro-13

Mesaĝoj: 26

Lingvo: English

nornen (Montri la profilon) 2015-februaro-16 20:22:26

This question seems to be related to the accessibility hierarchy, which defines which elements of a phrase can be accessed from the outside. Here is a very short definition in the context of relativization, but I daresay that the same principle applies to whether an element can be subject to wh-fronting or not.

Tempodivalse (Montri la profilon) 2015-februaro-16 20:47:21

sudanglo:Actually, my big issue is why Esperanto texts are not professionally edited before publication. But first, I wanted to establish that my lingvo-sento had not led me astray.
William Auld:Kiu vi supozas lin?
My big issue is why someone like William Auld used this kind of construction to begin with - we're not talking about a simple typo, after all. From my end, it looks like a bad anglaĵo.

In Russian you'd express the desired meaning as: Vy ego za kogo prinjali? "You him for whom took?"

In that vein, maybe we need a different structure here entirely: - Vi identigis/perceptis lin kiel kiun?

sudanglo (Montri la profilon) 2015-februaro-17 11:45:33

I don't want to be too hard on Bill Auld. Anybody, even in their mother tongue can write less clearly. It is commonplace in the foreword of academic texts for the author to express his thanks to third parties for improvements to the text.

My beef is with the publishers who don't get texts edited before publication. I have frequently had the impression that stuff has been published in Esperanto without it being lingve kontrolita

However I concede that in the case of Esperanto a case can be made for the avoidance of a too ruthless editing, as this might inhibit the growth of the language. A certain amount of language experimentation provides a growth point for new structures, and the introduction of lexical innovation.

But just publishing anything as submitted, because you don't want to offend the author, or because it is simpler not to bother to get the text edited, is not a good idea.

sudanglo (Montri la profilon) 2015-februaro-17 12:32:36

Kirilo:both "Kiu vi supozas lin" and "Vi supozas lin kiu" sound bad to me.
Yes Kirilo, question words usually come at the front. But I am not sure that the rule is absolute in Esperanto.

Ni faru liston de viaj kreditoroj. Vi ŝuldas kiom al kiu?
Do, vi diras ke vi neniam antaŭe vidis lin, ĉu?
Kaj oni literumas tion, kiel?
Vi diris kion!!
Jes, oni enverŝu la lakton en la tason antaŭ ol enverŝi la teon, sed kial?

And why not, Vi prenas min por kiu?

It is also a 'rule' in Esperanto that in single clause sentences the order is SVO. But this can be varied.

Tempodivalse (Montri la profilon) 2015-februaro-17 15:55:39

sudanglo:Yes Kirilo, question words usually come at the front. But I am not sure that the rule is absolute in Esperanto.
I would generally agree. I frequently form constructions similar to the ones you just cited.

But sudanglo, surely the word order is much more fixed when the clause with the question word is introduced by an indicative correlative:

Plie la blinda hazardo eble frapus tiun, kiun vi preferas.
...ni kvar havas da laborado tiom, kiom ni povas fari...
Tiu, kiu volas riĉiĝi...

etc. I have never seen the question words be divorced from an OSV (or SVO when the question word is subject) order in the clause (e.g.: eble frapus tiun, vi kiun preferas or Tiu, volas kiu riĉiĝi).

sudanglo:And why not, Vi prenas min por kiu?
Oddly instinct doesn't like this, though this is exactly what you'd say in Russian ... my first thought was that the interlocutor has been abducted ("taken" ) and is asking who is supposed to benefit from the abduction. Perhaps this less-than-literal usage of "preni" and "por" just caught me off guard.

sudanglo (Montri la profilon) 2015-februaro-18 11:00:13

Mi prenis vin por iu pli merita (Zamenhof)

Tempo, see definition 9 for preni in NPIV: erare intermiksi en rekono aŭ taksado

For abduction, forpreni would be better.

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