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Is Cxu nessasary?

od Alkanadi, 11. marec 2015

Sporočila: 57

Jezik: English

Tempodivalse (Prikaži profil) 12. marec 2015 16:13:05

Sudanglo:Well Tempo, why don't we ask a Chinese speaker, how a question may be asked in Chinese without an explicit question word, or some variation of syntax. We don't need to 'deduce' what happens. We can discover what happens.
Sure. But there are other tonal languages besides Chinese, which presumably vary in their ways of distinguishing a question from a statement. The point is that, given the wide variety of possible intonations across languages, there isn't always a way of reliably indicating interrogativity from intonation or even word order in Esperanto. Ĉu, as an explicit marker of yes-no, goes a long way to avoid confusion.

Incidentally, most of your examples are not yes-no questions.

I will agree that context can make it obvious what the intention is, especially in written text, where the presence of a question mark removes all doubt, for instance Bone, kaj vi? in response to Kiel vi fartas? - where Bone is itself a truncation of Mi fartas bone, where the verb is implied.

But in other cases it is not necessarily so clear. This is why my intuition is to avoid dropping the particle unless the sentence is very truncated.

Of course, it doesn't help to get too prescriptivist. We shouldn't need to worry about mechanical Lojban-style unambiguity in spontaneous language use. This doesn't, however, mean there are no stylistic and clarificatory considerations.

DuckFiasco (Prikaži profil) 12. marec 2015 16:59:25

I always use cxu just as a basic feature of the language, like the accusative, or not ending sentences with prepositions. It strikes me as personal preference to say we can leave cxu out sometimes but leaving the accusative out is a mistake, or not according adjectives is a mistake. Context makes a lot of little mistakes clear in the end, so it's not a good reason to me personally for leaving stuff out like ĉu.

All kinds of errors can happen when people speak Esperanto, because it's a second language for most. If we know to use cxu, we should use it unless we forget!

That's my opinion anyway.

Suzumiya (Prikaži profil) 12. marec 2015 21:50:32

sudanglo:Well Tempo, why don't we ask a Chinese speaker, how a question may be asked in Chinese without an explicit question word, or some variation of syntax. We don't need to 'deduce' what happens. We can discover what happens.
In tonal languages intonation can't be changed as that changes the meaning of words, instead auxiliaries or a change of syntax is used.

As I explained in an earlier post, ma (吗) in Mandarin works like cxu in Esperanto, but it's limited to yes-no questions, this renders the question mark obsolete. When there are words like who, why, etc. the question mark is also unnecessary yet used nowadays; of course intonation doesn't change. Another way to ask a question in Mandarin and also Cantonese is to repeat the verb twice:

你要不要去北京?
要 yào = to want, so the sentence literally says: want you, don't you want to go to Beijing?

Cantonese works in the same way:

你識唔識講廣東話?
識 sik1 to know, literally: you know, don't know to speak Cantonese?

In Thai it depends on the kind of question, if you add ไหม at the end you can ask a yes-no question:

คุณชอบอาหารไทยไหม do you like Thai food?

หรื่อเปล่า can be used, too, when you want a straight answer:

คุณจะไปหรื่อเปล่า are you going?

And Wh- questions like อะไร (what), ที่ไหน (where), ใคร (who), etc. don't require any change of intonation or syntax.

If I remember, in Vietnamese affirmative and interrogative sentences are syntatically the same, you use auxiliaries or verb repetition to ask questions.

Christa627 (Prikaži profil) 12. marec 2015 22:12:47

Suzumiya: Another way to ask a question in Mandarin and also Cantonese is to repeat the verb twice:

你要不要去北京?
要 yào = to want, so the sentence literally says: want you, don't you want to go to Beijing?

Cantonese works in the same way:

你識唔識講廣東話?
識 sik1 to know, literally: you know, don't know to speak Cantonese?
Wow, I didn't realize that Toki Pona had so much Chinese influence:

sina sona ala sona e toki mi? = You understand not understand my talk?

sudanglo (Prikaži profil) 14. marec 2015 13:15:28

There have been a whole lot of assumptions flying around in this thread.

It seems plain that truncated questions actually occur in written Esperanto, and plausibly in the spoken language too. And even if you deny that truncated questions occur in the spoken language, the question arises of how you would read out aloud such dialogue from a book

I would be interested in knowing the facts of how Esperantists distinguish in speech between Ĉio preta? and Ĉio preta.

I am not at all convinced that speakers of tonal language must necessarily not be able to indicate in their voice the difference when speaking their own language.

Isn't it the pitch variation within a word that changes the meaning of the word in a tonal language? That doesn't seem to rule out the possibility of pitch variation across a phrase, or a lengthening or shortening of a syllable to carry meaning (or some other distinguishing vocalisation.)

In any case, the issue is whether they can signal this in a learnt language. Are we saying that Chinese speakers can't learn to speak English (which relies heavily on intonation).

johmue (Prikaži profil) 15. marec 2015 00:09:13

sudanglo:I would be interested in knowing the facts of how Esperantists distinguish in speech between Ĉio preta? and Ĉio preta.
They don't. They use the word "ĉu" and distinguish between "Ĉio preta." and "Ĉu ĉio preta?"

Ondo (Prikaži profil) 15. marec 2015 09:41:36

johmue:
sudanglo:I would be interested in knowing the facts of how Esperantists distinguish in speech between Ĉio preta? and Ĉio preta.
They don't. They use the word "ĉu" and distinguish between "Ĉio preta." and "Ĉu ĉio preta?"
Amen. Or perhaps Sudanglo would like to pronounce [ĉio preta demandsigno] ridulo.gif

Or is he claiming there is a universal intonation pattern for yes-no questions in all languages? My own languge (Finnish) certanly does not imitate the English rising intonation. And does he imply that I don't know Esperanto, if I push the start button of a dangerous machine, when I here somebody shouting "Ĉio preta?", allegedly sounding like a question?

It is OK to express uncertainty or astonishment without "ĉu" and perhaps even write such words or sentences with a question mark (an exclamation mark could be more appropriate in many cases). Others might or might not react to such declarative sentences ("Ne, ne! Vi miskomprenis, haltu!" ), but they are not real questions requiring an answer. If you really need an answer, please add "ĉu". You can put the word at the end, if you forgot it at the beginning: "Ĉio preta, ĉu?"

sudanglo (Prikaži profil) 15. marec 2015 12:51:03

I am not claiming anything about a universal vocalisation of ĉu-omitting questions. I am just wondering about how they are vocalised.

Curious though, Ondo, that you can say It is OK to express uncertainty or astonishment without "ĉu". Do you imagine that there is some universal of vocalisation of astonishment or uncertainty.

"Vi devos ellitiĝi je la naŭa", diris la patrino
"Je la naua?", protestis ŝia dekkekjarula filo.

That can be read aloud as it stands?

But "Ĉio preta?", demandis la patrino, kiu anxiis pri ekiro. has to be read aloud as Ĉio preta, ĉu ?

Rugxdoma (Prikaži profil) 16. marec 2015 00:35:35

The question marks can stand for a lot of information which cannot be heard in the utterance - gestures, facial expressions, logics, situation and other context.
Some decades ago it was quite common among Swedes to draw quotation marks in the air with two fingers of each hand, to emphasise what they did not trust their changed voice to be able to express clerly enough by itself - that they said something that was not their own words.
Chinese speakers often draw invisible characters in their palms to indicate which one of a bunch of homonymes they use. I have never experienced Chinese speakers drawing a question mark in their palms, but why not, if one puts enough pressure on them to abstain from their beloved question particle ma.

Edited

Ondo (Prikaži profil) 16. marec 2015 06:29:04

If I ever hear Sudanglo uttering "Ĉio preta" or "Ĉio preta?" I'll demand the same in writing.

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