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The Tekstaro and infallibility

od Tempodivalse, 23. travnja 2015.

Poruke: 9

Jezik: English

Tempodivalse (Prikaz profila) 23. travnja 2015. 17:21:48

The Tekstaro seems rather widely accepted as the go-to resource for appropriate language use in Esperanto. If a certain syntax or semantic usage is seen in the Tekstaro, then it must be acceptable - or so the (implicit) reasoning goes.

While I don't dispute that the Tekstaro is an excellent resource to establish precedent for certain usages or see the prevailing trends, at the highest stylistic levels, I wonder whether one shouldn't still take its material with a grain of salt. I worry that (at least on these forums) some people are eager to just cherry-pick some quotes, without a critical eye ("Oh, but it's the Tekstaro..." ). Further, the Tekstaro has (mostly minor) inconsistencies even within itself. For example, there are several instances of pronomial unun, which is generally considered erroneous (PAG notwithstanding), or questionable participle tenses, or unclear syntax, etc.

I would think the Tekstaro is best used as a supplement to our own intuitions and knowledge about how Esperanto works, rather than as a trump card to override them.

leporinjo (Prikaz profila) 23. travnja 2015. 18:50:09

I'll just get this question out of the way.

Why is this in the English forum?

bartlett22183 (Prikaz profila) 23. travnja 2015. 19:16:31

The original post is in English and relates specifically to Esperanto usage, so as far as I understand it is entirely legitimate for posting in the English forum. I admit that it might be a suitable topic for posting in one of the E-o forums, but that is for the decision and competence of the original poster.

Kirilo81 (Prikaz profila) 23. travnja 2015. 19:30:59

The Fundamento is normative, not the Tekstaro.

Tempodivalse (Prikaz profila) 23. travnja 2015. 19:32:54

leporinjo:I'll just get this question out of the way.

Why is this in the English forum?
Because it's relevant to a theme in the English subforum of using the Tekstaro to defend language choices under the apparent assumption that the Tekstaro does not feature less-than-ideal examples. My target audience is the participants of this subforum - to see if they are indeed making this assumption, and more generally what their attitudes are towards the Tekstaro. Though it's worth posting this to the EO forums too, sure.

nornen (Prikaz profila) 23. travnja 2015. 19:51:44

I deem the Fundamento prescriptive and the Tekstaro and other corpora descriptive.

When I am in doubt, my order of precedence is:
1) Fundamento
2) Zamenhof works in the tekstaro
3) Other people's works in the tekstaro.

What I find in (1) I consider to be a rule. What I find in (2) I consider to be a guideline. What I find in (3) I consider to be a hint.

sudanglo (Prikaz profila) 24. travnja 2015. 10:26:28

If a certain syntax or semantic usage is seen in the Tekstaro, then it must be acceptable - or so the (implicit) reasoning goes.
Well it all depends on what you mean by 'is seen'.

Obviously a single hit in the Tekstaro does not supply strong evidence. But if you can find 100 hits and they don't just appear in one text, then you've made your case.

Let's consider an example that has resulted in a lot of discussion in another thread.

In the Tekstaro you will find many hits that include something like vidis lin fari, or aŭdis lin fari. They strongly support the idea that with these verbs what is in the accusative is the 'subject' of the infinitive not its object.

This is then can form a basis for concluding that in a sentence like mi vidis S-ron Smith policiston mortigi, S-ron Smith is the 'subject' of mortigi, or to put it another way, this phrase has the same meaning as mi vidis S-ron Smith mortigi policiston.

And even a single example from the Tekstaro in a very authoritative text can be useful.

For example, suppose we found a single example like mi vidis ŝin sin bani, this reinforces the idea that we may conclude that the ŝin is the 'subject' of the infinitive (the reflexive pronoun refers back to the subject) and sin the object of bani.

Alkanadi (Prikaz profila) 26. travnja 2015. 14:49:29

It is just a tool. The safer bet is to stick to Esperanto usages with multiple hits.

One time I was looking up where to place the comma in a sentence with the word ke. I found only a few hits where it appears a certain way. But, I found tons of hits where it is used "correctly."

erinja (Prikaz profila) 26. travnja 2015. 21:55:46

You need to know what you're looking at, and for what purpose. The early hits in the Tekstaro are mainly from major works of Esperanto literature by significant authors. These authors (Kabe, for example) played a significant role in the development of our language's style. The later hits -- you can see how things evolve. If I see that Kabe used a certain form, I might consider it worth imitating. If I see that something showed up in an issue of Monato, I would not take that as a vote for or against that form, because Monato has contributors from all over, it's not like it's written by a single well-known and well-respected author, and I have no clue who the editor is. But Monato might be a good example for figuring out when new words are introduced, and which way the wind is blowing with regard to popular usage ("komputilo" or "komputoro"?)

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