Postitused: 9
Keel: English
Chriswood (Näita profiili) 18. mai 2015 20:42.24
Pasintsemajne mi decidis lerni Esperanton. Hodiaŭ mi havas demandon pri la malsameco inter la uzado de "tio" kaj "tiu". (hope that made sense; please correct xD)First things first I'd like to clarify that I am well aware that this topic has already been discussed in another thread. I did, however, not fully understand the difference between "tio" and "tiu" as explained there.
What I could extract from the other thread was that "tio" is used for something general while "tiu" is used for something specific, e.g. "that one". This made perfect sense until I went to practice some vocabulary on this site. You see, there I noticed that "how much does that cost?" is translated as "kiom kostas tio?". Wouldn't it be more logical to use "kiom kostas tiu?" since something specific ("that one" )is being referred to?
Besides this, I'm likewise not fully competent when it comes to using "kiu" as opposed to "kio". If anyone would explain the difference between these two as well, I'd really appreciate it!
Tempodivalse (Näita profiili) 18. mai 2015 22:39.57
Tiu is normally used in conjunction with another noun or adjective as a determiner. Tiu viro estas alta - that (particular) man is tall; tiutempa, of that time. When used on its own, tiu means "that person" - an animate demonstrative pronoun, as it were. Tiu telefonis min. - That [person] called me. Edit: Standalone "tiu" is also possible for inanimate objects where the referent is implied, e.g. Kiu libro plaĉas al vi? - Al mi plaĉas tiu [libro].
In English we can say "somebody" (iu), "everybody" (ĉiu) and "nobody" (neniu), so you might find it helpful to think of tiu as "thatbody" - which happens to be a lexical gap in English.
Tio, meanwhile, it is used by itself to mean "that" (particular thing, already mentioned). Tio ĝenas min, that annoys me; tio estas stultaĵo, that is a folly.
Compare with tiu problemo ĝenas min; tiu ideo estas stultaĵo. When there is another referent (problemo, ideo), you need to use tiu.
You will also occasionally see tio paired with ke, as in malgraŭ tio, ke li malsaniĝis..., which means something like "Despite the fact that he got sick..." This is a Slavism (cf. несмотря на то, что он заболел), but it is widely accepted.
You're not alone in finding this difference difficult. Slavic languages have a direct parallel with tiu (cf. Russian тот, Ukrainian той), but the feature is curiously absent from most other Western languages.
nornen (Näita profiili) 19. mai 2015 2:13.57
Tempodivalse:This is a Slavism (cf. несмотря на то, что он заболел), but it is widely accepted.Not only slavic. Also germanic.
German for instance: pri tio, ke = darüber, dass (tio-pri, ke)
Miland (Näita profiili) 19. mai 2015 7:47.01
Chriswood:I noticed that "how much does that cost?" is translated as "kiom kostas tio?". Wouldn't it be more logical to use "kiom kostas tiu?" since something specific ("that one" )is being referred to?I believe you could use either, depending on the circumstances. For instance, say you are looking at two items in a market stall. You could point to one and say "Kiom kostas tiu?", meaning the particular one you are interested in.
Tio is typically used for something less specific. For example for a meal, or for a costing for several items you might ask "kiom kostas tio?" without going into details.
sudanglo (Näita profiili) 19. mai 2015 17:23.40
Kiom tio kostas? - How much is that?
Kiom kostas tiu? - How much is that particular one (not some other one)?
Tempodivalse (Näita profiili) 19. mai 2015 17:34.46
sudanglo:As Miland rightly says both are possible - 'kiom tio kostas' and 'kiom kostas tiu'.I was under the impression that when you use tiu on its own, the referent is implied. Consider: La libroj plaĉas al mi. Kiom kostas ĉi tiu [libro]? This is the way it works in Russian, anyway - you have to put tiu in the appropriate gender for whatever referent you are talking about, even if the referent is not made explicit.
The essential difference is that when tiu is used, you are identifying one and not some other one.
The difference is still not easy to explain. Does anyone know of languages besides Slavic languages with this distinction built into their correlatives?
KStef (Näita profiili) 19. mai 2015 17:59.37
I'm Slavic (Polish) native-speaker, but I don't know how to explain it.
In some Slavic languages, speakers use 'mind shortcuts' if they don't want to say more than they must. For example "I am" in Slovak is "Ja som" and they can also say "Som" (English: am). Example:
I am Slovak people - Som Slovák.
Also if you are talking about something which is known.
Have you seen my keys? - Cxu vi vidis mia sxlosiloj?
Yes, There are in the kitchen. - Jes, tiuj estas en la kuirejo.
erinja (Näita profiili) 19. mai 2015 18:01.25
I normally explain to students that "tio" is for "that", all alone, not accompanied by a noun. "Tiu" is for that accompanied by a noun. "Tiu" used all alone means "that one" or "that individual" or "that person", depending of course on context.
sudanglo (Näita profiili) 20. mai 2015 11:53.14
Grammarians who use a language self-referentially - to talk about itself rather than the world - are Johnny-come-lately's, and are anyway only a small fraction of the population (who don't always agree among themselves as to the appropriate terms).
It should not be surprising that attempts to express abstractly the idea behind some grammatical feature of a language may flounder for want of suitable terms.
But the difference between tio and tiu is, in itself, not particularly obscure.
In short, 'tiu' implies others, 'tio' doesn't.
English may be lacking 'thatbody' to go alongside 'somebody and 'nobody' for reference to persons, but for things we have 'that one' to identify one among others.
In the singular it can never be correct to use 'tiu' where there is only that thing and no others, just as you wouldn't say in English 'that one' if there were in your mind's eye no others.
However, as Erinja points out, when it comes to referring to multiple things, there is no choice. By convention it is tiuj not tioj. So in that case the contrast between tio and tiu is diminished.