Duolingo will help with reform!!!!
1Guy1 :lta, 31. toukokuuta 2015
Viestejä: 183
Kieli: English
novatago (Näytä profiilli) 31. toukokuuta 2015 21.33.02
makis:I'm with that right now. Outrageous anyway.novatago:Have you tried the course or read the thread in question?makis:That field day arrived much sooner than I thought it would...Yes this is really funny, 128 years of work are now going down through the toilet seat. There's a lot to celebrate.
Ĝis, Novatago.
leporinjo (Näytä profiilli) 31. toukokuuta 2015 21.45.20
Some new people on Duolingo have been saying things like, "I am a non-binary person and I was wondering how to identify myself in Esperanto." So there have been fair, rational discussions of things like Iĉismo, Riismo, etc., including advice (from cisgender men) that non-binary people use pronouns like "ĝi", "tiu" and "li". This led to the obvious question: which one is it? Ĝi, tiu or li? No one could agree.
I pointed out that Duolingo teaches Iismo, a reform which has never been made official. Originally coming from a purely anti-reform standpoint, I asked why Iismo (which is useless and kontraŭfundamenta) is part of the course, but not Riismo or Iĉismo? I pointed out the hypocrisy of allowing something like Iismo while running to the Fundamento as soon as someone brings up gender reform. This led to a reasonable, healthy discussion of topics such as privilege, sexism, etc.
I do not back down from the position I took, and actually, as more and more experienced, fluent, non-binary Esperantists (such as one of the authors of Egalecen) have been coming into the discussion and saying they are Riistoj, I have become a Riisto too. I base this purely on the fact that at least SOME non-binary people WANT to be called ri, so why not call them that?
I suppose if you have rational objections to any of this, you should get involved in the discussions on Facebook and Duolingo. If your point is valid, I am sure people will come around to it. Good luck!
leporinjo (Näytä profiilli) 31. toukokuuta 2015 21.59.48
jean-luc:If that's the case then why are so many people just as dead sure as you are that the Fundamento says "tiu" or the Fundamento says "li"? Why does the current version of the PMEG completely disagree with you and say to use "li", if the Fundamento is clear on the topic? http://bertilow.com/pmeg/gramatiko/pronomoj/tria.h... Interestingly, PMEG mentions "ri" as a proposal, but never mentions "ĝi" as a personal pronoun. I think you've just demonstrated my point.leporinjo: that non-binary people use pronouns like "ĝi", "tiu" and "li". This led to the obvious question: which one is it? Ĝi, tiu or li? No one could agree.La fundamento is pretty clear on the topic, ĝi must be used as a pronoun when the gender isn't known
Zamenhof hadn't even thought about the possibility of non-binary people in the late 1800s. What is happening is that people are desperately trying to find a solution in the Fundamento, and even spertuloj can't agree on what that solution is. Everyone is convinced there is a solution, but no one knows what it is.
nornen (Näytä profiilli) 31. toukokuuta 2015 22.03.55
jean-luc:Which Fundamento? The Fundamento I know says:leporinjo: that non-binary people use pronouns like "ĝi", "tiu" and "li". This led to the obvious question: which one is it? Ĝi, tiu or li? No one could agree.La fundamento is pretty clear on the topic, ĝi must be used as a pronoun when the gender isn't known
Fundamento:La pli maljuna estis tiel simila al la patrino per sia karaktero kaj vizaĝo, ke ĉiu, kiu ŝin vidis, povis pensi, ke li vidas la patrinon;Could you please point out the exact passages of the Fundamento which state that "ĝi" is to be used when a persons gender isn't known?
leporinjo (Näytä profiilli) 31. toukokuuta 2015 22.08.30
leporinjo (Näytä profiilli) 31. toukokuuta 2015 22.11.51
jean-luc:You should ask a non-binary person that; I'm not at all qualified to answer the question. I would never presume to know, nor to decide how non-binary people should call themselves. It's not for me to know or to decide. If even one non-binary person wants me to call them "ri," I will call them "ri."leporinjo:Non-binary people are not quite the same as "people of unknown sex." They are people who belong to a separate gender from men and women. If the Fundamento has a pronoun for such people, I'm all ears.why would you need a third gender and not 3000 ?
leporinjo (Näytä profiilli) 31. toukokuuta 2015 22.16.19
jean-luc:I'm sure you don't, but you don't have to know the reason for everything. The point is, non-binary people say there is a problem. From our position, we could not possibly say whether they have one or not. If they say there is a problem, we should be empathetic instead of bludgeoning them with what we think we know about the Fundamento, but can't even agree on amongst ourselves.leporinjo:You should ask a non-binary person that; I'm not at all qualified to answer the question. I would never presume to know, nor to decide how non-binary people should call themselves.So I don't get your problem
leporinjo (Näytä profiilli) 31. toukokuuta 2015 22.22.42
Tempodivalse (Näytä profiilli) 31. toukokuuta 2015 22.50.59
Concerning gendered pronouns:
If the gender is unknown, then one normally uses li, as indicated in the Fundamento, where it is evident that li has two uses: 1) the male pronoun; and 2) the generic, sex-neutral animate pronoun (similar to "generic he" in English and Slavic languages, among others).
This doesn't work so well when talking about people who are non-binary, however, since the gender is not strictly "unknown" but rather "not male or female".
The obvious workaround is to use tiu. There might be ambiguities though, where it is not immediately clear if tiu is referring to a person, or some other referent mentioned in immediate context.
You could also use ghi, though this might be uncomfortable for some people because ghi is traditionally associated with inanimate objects or animals. However, you could also argue that it makes a reasonable "none of the above" pronoun, especially if precedent for such usage is established.
In any event I think we can find a solution without having to resort to eksterfundamentaj neologisms.
nornen (Näytä profiilli) 31. toukokuuta 2015 22.59.42
Maybe we should apply for the green recycling batch.