Mensagens: 80
Idioma: English
vejktoro (Mostrar o perfil) 21 de junho de 2015 07:54:28
So I thought of ri or sxli as a proposed short form of "he or she." Ie, a neuter but human 3rd person akin to the global third person in many languages. It seems to me like we are in this discussion and others looking for a pronoun that means something a little different: a pronoun for one (specific person) who is transgendered.
The weight of this linguistically from the culture is that whatever pronoun comes to be accepted or regularized by this group will quickly loose it's neutral status and come to mean something very un-neutral. Directly and without question it will mean transgendered person. This may not be the intent, but it WILL be the result; very explicitly not the 'he or she' as 'ri' and 'sxli' were originally proposed for.
The observation being that a semantic shift of the proposed neuter pronouns will occur and the proposers of the originals will be left to re-propose to fill the perceived gap.
There is a cultural question that goes way beyond Eo. How much info do we really want/need to be contained in a pronoun.., and how much unintended info are we willing to deal with.
vejktoro (Mostrar o perfil) 21 de junho de 2015 08:02:01
In my previous post I used the term 'transgendered'. This was just the example I chose to make my point. One could substitute 'non-binary' in its place and the argument would be the same.. which furthers my question: do we want different pronouns for non-binary as opposed to transgendered?
Red_Rat_Writer (Mostrar o perfil) 21 de junho de 2015 20:18:14
it's not uncommon for people to display multiple pronouns that they made up. I see it a lot on Tumblr (although they're mostly teenagers/preteens).
I believe that if ri gets included in Esperanto*, then it will stop there. Most people will only expect one gender neuter pronoun, and will know that adding more would be repetitive and redundant.
I think you're talking about pronouns for the different kind of non-binary genders::. That sounds foolish, and no respectable people would seriously suggest anything like that.
*I'm in the gxi camp
::I don't believe in non-biological genders.
vejktoro (Mostrar o perfil) 24 de junho de 2015 05:01:16
Red_Rat_Writer:@Vejktoro,No. That wasn't the point.
I think you're talking about pronouns for the different kind of non-binary genders::. That sounds foolish, and no respectable people would seriously suggest anything like that.
Red_Rat_Writer (Mostrar o perfil) 24 de junho de 2015 05:28:21
This quote led me to that conclusion. Could you please clarify this?
vejktoro (Mostrar o perfil) 28 de junho de 2015 07:01:07
In a natural language people most oft adopt or adapt this or that existing word to fill some perceived gap. If 'they' in English becomes the norm for non-binary individuals then they and we will call them 'they'. It is not a huge burden for 'they'.. it is the obvious choice, and the word can still be used to refer to all the stuff it referred to before.
If you make up a new word however (in a natural language), it will likely NOT retain it's neutrality. It will likely come to mean 'non-binary' as opposed to purely neutral. 'Ri' is understood but not broadly accepted as a neutral pronoun in Esperanto. If the non-binary camp adopt it, maybe even be the saviors of the propsed neutral pronoun, I wonder if it will loose it's neutrality and come to be a pronoun that means specifically 'non-binary'.. this is not neutral.. it does not mean 'he or she,' it means 'one who identifies with neither.'
Maybe that's okay, maybe it is desired, I dunno. The point is that 'sxi aux li' will still be needed.. maybe even 'li aux sxi aux ri' (ha!).. to express pure ambiguity.
The argument is broad and theoretical and what pronounily challenged group fills the blank does not change the musing. Sorry the aside was confusing. But...
vejktoro (Mostrar o perfil) 28 de junho de 2015 07:12:23
So we got MALE, FEMALE, and I suppose, SHEMALE.. his, hers, and hishers... I mean, if ya gets your own washroom, a pronoun ain't a big thing to ask!
In my mind this would be better served by 'sxli' than 'ri'. I know most transgendered people are binary and use the pronoun of the gender that suits them best.. but their washroom isn't for any hes or shes.. it's for the heshes.
NOTE: this has been an aside inspired by the unintentional confusion I caused earlier. Sorry for any confusion this causes.
Tangi (Mostrar o perfil) 28 de junho de 2015 12:54:51
Red_Rat_Writer (Mostrar o perfil) 29 de junho de 2015 04:17:48
Honestly, if ri gets accepted by the community, I don't see it being used as a gender neuter pronoun. I think it will be used more as a non-binary pronoun, like you said.
I don't think the general populous will stop using gendered pronouns anytime soon, gender is very important to them for some reason.
Now that I know what you're talking about, I agree with you.
nornen (Mostrar o perfil) 29 de junho de 2015 05:21:34
Why not simply one for the third person singular, like we have with first and second person?
Singular: mi - vi - ĝi
Why have plurals for the first and third person, when we have no singular-plural distinction for the second person?
Plural: mi - vi - ĝi
Most languages in my country (Guatemala) don't have any personal pronouns at all. Why not remove them completely?
A lot easier.