Späť na obsah
Odpovedať

I have a non-binary character, what do?

od yasmin_chanelle, 3. júna 2015

Príspevky: 80

Jazyk: English

yasmin_chanelle (Zobraziť profil) 3. júna 2015 17:22:42

I am writing a comic and one of the characters is non-binary, so in English I would use "they", but as far as I know Esperanto has no equivalent. I cant use "li" or "sxi" as those are explicitly gendered. What neutral pronoun can I use that is most recognized that will cause the least ruckus? I already avoid using reformisms but I really do need this. If there is a way to refer to them neutrally without reform that would be great (I've seen "geli" used and that seems to not break the fundamento, but its understandability is debatable). What do I do?

erinja (Zobraziť profil) 3. júna 2015 17:37:08

Does this non-binary character never have occasion to introduce themselves to others in the story?

My understanding is that it's common for people to choose their own pronoun, since English also lacks one. I think you can simply make up whatever you think this character would be comfortable with, if this were a real Esperanto speaker, and have the character tell the other characters to use it, as necessary.

How deep do you want to get into this? There are choices people make in English and you could choose how this person would refer to themselves in English, then choose the Esperanto equivalent.

That might be repurposing "ili" as a singular pronoun (this is done with "they" in English), or making up a 'misspelled' version of an Esperanto pronoun ("gi"? "zi"?). There is a proposed language reform to use "ri" as a gender neutral pronoun but if you choose to use that here, you may be understood to be a supporter of language reform, which is perhaps not the message you want to be giving. There are lots of politics behind "ri" that would not be behind something that you simply make up and explain in the context of the story.

"oni" is also an option you may not have considered. I am not sure how the Esperanto non-binary community feels about that.

orthohawk (Zobraziť profil) 3. júna 2015 17:46:12

erinja:
That might be repurposing "ili" as a singular pronoun (this is done with "they" in English), or making up a 'misspelled' version of an Esperanto pronoun ("gi"? "zi"?). There is a proposed language reform to use "ri" as a gender neutral pronoun but if you choose to use that here, you may be understood to be a supporter of language reform, which is perhaps not the message you want to be giving. There are lots of politics behind "ri" that would not be behind something that you simply make up and explain in the context of the story.
Or Yasmin could simply place a disclaimer on the frontpage of ses comic stating that while se uses "ri" in the story, se is not necessarily a proponent of this or any other reform movement.

Or else, on first introduction of the character, have them say "I prefer that you call me 'ri'" and then use that from then on, or else (a la "Moby Dick" ): "Ridiru pri mi" or "priparolu mi 'ri-e'" as an opening sentence.

Tempodivalse (Zobraziť profil) 3. júna 2015 18:27:13

yasmin_chanelle:I am writing a comic and one of the characters is non-binary, so in English I would use "they", but as far as I know Esperanto has no equivalent. I cant use "li" or "sxi" as those are explicitly gendered. What neutral pronoun can I use that is most recognized that will cause the least ruckus? I already avoid using reformisms but I really do need this. If there is a way to refer to them neutrally without reform that would be great (I've seen "geli" used and that seems to not break the fundamento, but its understandability is debatable). What do I do?
The two simplest solutions, which follow established precedent, are as follows (not mutually exclusive):

1) Use tiu in unambiguous contexts (that is, where tiu could not be reasonably interpreted to refer to something other than the character).

2) Use ĝi, a non-gendered pronoun. It is already sometimes used to refer to animate objects, including people, where the gender is unknown or not important, for example in terms like infano, homo, persono.

A more dubious, but probably defensible, solution would be to repurpose ili or oni as a non-binary singular pronoun. However, there is virtually no precedent for this usage, which may result in the reader being confused.

Another option is the ekster-Fundamenta ri; however, I think most Esperantists would not understand it at all without some kind of footnote explanation. You can use this if you want, but be aware that it will stick out and generally be considered substandard, in the same way new English pronouns like "xe" are not going to be seen in any formal or serious publication. This may change over time, if the language evolves, but at present ri remains outside the scope of standard Esperanto.

erinja (Zobraziť profil) 3. júna 2015 18:29:12

Sxli is another choice. I forgot about it till now, you very occasionally see it as a sub for "sxi aux li". It has the advantage of being recognizable for more or less what it is, without additional explanation.

Chove (Zobraziť profil) 3. júna 2015 18:51:49

Probably you just have to at some point get the character to say what their preferred pronoun is and then stick to it. If, as suggested upthread, "ri" is unknown to most Esperantists then the reader will certainly know it by the end if you use it enough.

(I dunno about gxi, given that in English at least it's usually rude to call a person "it" and from what I've read "it" is almost never* the chosen pronoun of a nonbinary person.)

*I think actually never, but I say "almost" just in case I am proved wrong.

vikungen (Zobraziť profil) 3. júna 2015 18:58:07

Chove:
(I dunno about gxi, given that in English at least it's usually rude to call a person "it" and from what I've read "it" is almost never* the chosen pronoun of a nonbinary person.)
Yeah, but that is English. Other languages are other languages and this is Esperanto, where when gender is not known "ĝi" can be used. Can we please stop having this discussion every week?

Chove (Zobraziť profil) 3. júna 2015 19:05:01

Yes, that's English, but since this is everyone's second language there is maybe reason to give some thought to native languages and their taboos/etc? See, I know logically that "it" may not be rude in Esperanto, but I still think in English.

Sure, use gxi if you want, just be aware that a fair number of people will have the automatic thought that you're being rude in some way (which I assume is not the intent at all).

Tempodivalse (Zobraziť profil) 3. júna 2015 19:09:02

Chove:(I dunno about gxi, given that in English at least it's usually rude to call a person "it" and from what I've read "it" is almost never* the chosen pronoun of a nonbinary person.)
"It" in English doesn't quite coincide with Esperanto ĝi. The translation is often "it", but not always. In English you would rarely, if ever, use "it" to refer to the "person" or "human" - e.g., nobody says "The person is funny. It's making lots of good jokes", whereas in Esperanto it doesn't strike me as very weird to say La homo estas ridiga, gxi faras bonajn sxercojn.

I don't have a source immediately available, but I believe use of ĝi for animate objects/humans was endorsed by none other than Zamenhof, and has some precedent - certainly more than singular ili/oni or ri.

The reason this ĝi has not been used more often, I think, is because historically there has not been much awareness about non-binary genders, and in most situations you're not likely to need it. But in principle, there shouldn't be a problem.

Tempodivalse (Zobraziť profil) 3. júna 2015 19:12:12

Also. If you really want an ekster-fundamenta pronoun, I would go with sxli - more easily recognisable, and a bit more precedent I think, as erinja commented. Technically it may not be the most accurate though, since it means "he or she", but you could probably co-opt it for non-binary use.

Nahor