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Accusative with words that have become proper names

от Sfinkso, 06 юни 2015

Съобщения: 10

Език: English

Sfinkso (Покажи профила) 06 юни 2015, 13:09:46

How do you use the accusative with words that have become proper names, groups, internet handles etc.

For example I like the rock band Persone, so do I say ' Mi tre ŝatas persone' - adding the n for the accusative just sounds wrong?

Or I follow the Facebook group Ŝerco, if I said the same sentence with that would it take the n?

Or what about internet handles like the ones here. Would you say: mi tre ŝatas sfinkson or: mi tre ŝatas sfinsko?

Clarence666 (Покажи профила) 06 юни 2015, 13:53:16

Sfinkso:How do you use the accusative with words that have become proper names, groups, internet handles etc.
This is an open problem of the language | Tio estas nesolvita problemo de la lingvo:

http://eo.lernu.net/komunikado/forumo/temo.php?t=1...
http://eo.lernu.net/komunikado/forumo/sendado.php?...

glue "n" after "o" - good
glue "n" after "a" - semi-acceptable
glue "n" after any other letter - sucks

Fenris_kcf (Покажи профила) 06 юни 2015, 14:23:59

Also see this thread.

mbalicki (Покажи профила) 06 юни 2015, 14:25:40

In Esperantoland one does often esperantise names of websites or companies. So it's very common to hear “Guglo”, “Jahuo”, “Tvitero”, “Fejsbuko” (or “Vizaĝlibro”), “Androjdo”, “Vindozo” (and also “Vikipedio”, “Vikivortaro”, “Vikicitaro”, “Vikifontaro” ktp., even if not referring to Esperanto editions). It's also popular to esperantise first names, so that they become easy to use (male ending with “-o”, and female — with “-a”).

Some people use accusative simply by attaching “-on” (with the hyphen) to an object, when it's not an o-word by default. Others sometimes use proposed preposition “na”, which can solve some problems, where an object doesn't end with “-o” and isn't esperantisable.

But in two of three cases you've mentioned these proper names are also normal Esperanto words, so feel free to write Mi abonas Ŝercon, Mi ŝatas Sfinkson. As for the first example I'd imagine many would say Mi aŭskultas „Personon”, some wouldn't change that name at all, saying Mi aŭskultas „Persone”, and some would use unofficial aforementioned preposition, saying Mi aŭskultas na „Persone”.

Hound_of_God (Покажи профила) 06 юни 2015, 14:31:08

I've seen it used that people add "-on" to the end of the word, if that helps.

I like Persone -> Mi sxatas Persone-on. Or "Mi sxatas la muzikgrupon Persone",if that sounds bad to you, and you want clarity. You could take "I'm going to visit Johnson City" as "Mi vizitos la urbon 'Johnson' " rather than trying to force "Johnson City-on", which might not be understood.

He knows Tim -> Li konas Tim-on.

The "-on" helps when the words hasn't been "esperantized" (mainly with ending in o).

So if your name's Marco, just say "Markon". No "Marco-on". So "Sfinkson" is fine.

That's one solution, anyway, and I'm not really sure about names like Paula and the like. They might become Paulino, maybe.

yyaann (Покажи профила) 06 юни 2015, 14:32:11

Clarence666:
Sfinkso:How do you use the accusative with words that have become proper names, groups, internet handles etc.
This is an open problem of the language | Tio estas nesolvita problemo de la lingvo
There are actually well established solutions to this problem:

Mi sxatas la muzikgrupon Persone.
Mi sxatas la Persone-muzikgrupon.
Persone placxas al mi/Al mi placxas Persone. (Spanish-style)

Or in this case just saying Mi sxatas Persone would do, as mi not being in the accusative makes it unambiguously the subject of the sentence.

makis (Покажи профила) 06 юни 2015, 14:44:35

No one mentioned "je"?

" Mi ŝatas je Persone." (but only if you're already talking about favorite bands.)

Tempodivalse (Покажи профила) 06 юни 2015, 14:51:26

Clarence666:This is an open problem of the language | Tio estas nesolvita problemo de la lingvo:
No, it isn't. There is already a list of acceptable ways to use the accusative with proper names. Here are three of them:

1) Don't use an accusative ending at all. It will be obvious by context most of the time that the accusative is intended, especially if standard SVO wordlap order is followed:
-->Mi ne ŝatas Windows.

2) Slap an -on or -n (if ends in a vowel) onto the proper noun.
-->Ĉu vi vidis Lisan?
-->Mi uzas Slackware-on.

3) Esperanticise the name.
-->Linux = Linukso; Windows = Vindozo

Some of these will work better than others for particular instances, but they should cover just about anything.

Less preferable is to use je (which is not intended for use with direct objects, but is rather a failsafe, generic non-direct-object preposition). And there is no need at all for *na.

Ondo (Покажи профила) 08 юни 2015, 10:49:36

Tempodivalse:
Clarence666:This is an open problem of the language | Tio estas nesolvita problemo de la lingvo:
No, it isn't.
I couldn't agree more.

And beware of charlatans. I just posted a note on this in the Konsultejo where Clarence666 is also promoting his amataj ĉevaletoj. It was in Esperanto so I can't copy it in this forum.

mbalicki (Покажи профила) 08 юни 2015, 12:03:35

Ondo:
Tempodivalse:
Clarence666:This is an open problem of the language
No, it isn't.
I couldn't agree more.
Well, it's not like there is the exhaustive list of ways to deal with this issue approved by the Akademio. So in that sense Clarence's statement is valid.

Tempodivalse:And there is no need at all for *na.
I (sometimes, in very few kinds of situations, about which I've written in another, aforementioned topic) do feel that need. It doesn't contradict with the Fundamento at all and these are my private motivations.

Ondo:And beware of charlatans.
I'm not here to defend anyone, especially since I have no idea of Clarence's motivations. I'm also fully against the usage of “na”, where one could and should use normal “-n” ending (I think it's destructive for the language and simply kontraŭfundamenta). But come on, Ondo, do you really think that calling names on somebody gives you any moral high ground?

The question, Sfinkso have asked, what pretty straight forward: how do people deal with the problem. Collectively a pretty full answer has been replied. And I'm not criticising the right of stating your private opinion regarding which option suits you best, but insulting Clarence pretty much just for listing letters after which he sees “-n” as good is just rude of you.

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