Poruke: 100
Jezik: English
bryku (Prikaz profila) 15. kolovoza 2015. 16:13:50
I like she very much
I punch he hard
you see we in the street
Sounds great. Let's get rid of the accusative in English! We can't? So can't we in Esperanto! This whole debate is useless. Esperanto is the fully fledged language now (just like English is) and nobody can make such changes to it (not so sure about Putin, but it is another story).
Tempodivalse (Prikaz profila) 15. kolovoza 2015. 17:11:04
I think the mistake is in thinking that Esperanto is "easy" - where really it should be said that it is "easier than" almost all the major languages of the world (depending on one's existing language background). Of course there are going to be difficulties, just as with any fully-formed language.
One could rightly point out that Esperanto could have been created to be even simpler (note: not necessarily easier) than it is. That is trivially true, but also uninteresting from anything other than a theoretical interlinguistic perspective. You want to simplify or "make easier" the living Esperanto? Good luck - everyone before you has failed (Ido, Esperantido, Hom-Idyomo, etc.).
Altebrilas (Prikaz profila) 15. kolovoza 2015. 20:01:44
On the other hand, what is the punishment for people who forget it? We can't fine them nor put them in jail, just consider them unworthy to be esperantists. But I doubt it will do any good to our statistics...
robbkvasnak (Prikaz profila) 15. kolovoza 2015. 20:02:41
Language, my dear friends, is a means of communication, not just a set of rules. Much like people walking through the park, if there is a short cut between two points it may or may not become one day an accepted path or just remain a grassy meadow over which once in a while somebody strolls. If you want to write without the accusative, go ahead. There is no policeman to stop you. Do away with "la" if you want, start using new verbal endings and add words. If other people follow you, then your forms may one day become a norm. If not, you will just be perceived as someone off the beaten path and ungrammatical. Such is language.
There was a time when Norwegians addressed each other as "De" /di/ if they were formal. That form disappeared since I first learned Norwegian. There was a time when English speakers generally used "thou" - today that is reserved for some religious texts and some religious sects but it is generally not used. To use it for the general public is okay (another snarky word, hehe) but people would think you a bit strange. So go ahead and write without the accusative. I personally don't care and I will probably not consider your texts very well written and my brain may therefore dismiss them as trivial and unimportant. Good luck!
nornen (Prikaz profila) 15. kolovoza 2015. 21:39:40
robbkvasnak:In fact, American English is adding conjugated forms. It used to be that shoulda, woulda, coulda were just slang and only used in writing to be snarky.What have the mentioned words "shoulda", "woulda" and "coulda" to do with conjugation?
If "shoulda < should have" is a conjugated form, then also Spanish "al < a el" is a conjugated form?
Back to topic: Accusative has nothing to do with conjugations either.
Tempodivalse (Prikaz profila) 15. kolovoza 2015. 22:01:39
Altebrilas:the only thing that can be changed is the way we consider people who forget accusative: should they be stigmatized, or can we be tolerant?The correct course of action, surely, would be to help those people remember the accusative, by explaining how and where the accusative is used. There is nothing wrong in inadvertently forgetting an accusative - even proficient speakers do it occasionally.
When someone willfully omits the accusative from his speech, though, despite knowing how to use it - that person would get roughly the same treatment as a Russian speaker who refused to ever use the neuter, in other words, odd stares and confusion., e.g. "Why are you butchering the language like that?"
robbkvasnak (Prikaz profila) 15. kolovoza 2015. 23:51:12
nornen:In linguistics, nornen-whoever-and-whereever-you-are-maybe-a-troll-or-such, a conjugations refers to a verbal change that indicates person, number, or tense. Of course, nornen-whoever-and-whereever-you-are-maybe-a-troll-or-such, one can squat on formality and deny the existence of the forms shoulda, woulda, coulda - but, indeed, the proof of the pudding is that they are used as a past tense of should, would, and could, as in:robbkvasnak:In fact, American English is adding conjugated forms. It used to be that shoulda, woulda, coulda were just slang and only used in writing to be snarky.What have the mentioned words "shoulda", "woulda" and "coulda" to do with conjugation?
If "shoulda < should have" is a conjugated form, then also Spanish "al < a el" is a conjugated form?
Back to topic: Accusative has nothing to do with conjugations either.
A; You shoulda taken the trash out.
B: Yeah, I guess, I shoulda, but I was too tired from answering blatantly obvious queries on lernu.
A + el > al estas laŭ anglalingva lingvistiko deklensio. Mi scias ke la Vikipedia Esperanto priskribo ne inkluzivas artiklojn sed eble temas pri malgranda preteratento. [In English a + el > al is linguistically a declension. I know that the Vikipedio entry in Esperanto does not include articles, but this may merely be an oversight.]
One-up me in another field, nornen-whoever-and-whereever-you-are-maybe-a-troll-or-such, but not in linguistics - or culinary arts. The rest I cede.
Tempodivalse (Prikaz profila) 16. kolovoza 2015. 00:25:04
As I understand it, "conjugation" is used in reference to verbs, whereas "declension" is used in reference to nouns. Since accusativity (or more precisely, the accusative ending) in Esperanto is a feature of nouns, not verbs, it is technically incorrect to group the accusative with "conjugations".
But this seems trifling enough.
robbkvasnak (Prikaz profila) 16. kolovoza 2015. 03:41:23
Armand6 (Prikaz profila) 16. kolovoza 2015. 05:28:32
bryku:Let's get rid of the accusative in English!A better idea: let's get rid of accusative in Dutch! Oops! They already did... in 1946. Such changes happen very often, actually.