Messaggi: 13
Lingua: English
sudanglo (Mostra il profilo) 16 giugno 2015 14:37:20
If something is movebla, it is moveable, portable, mobile in the sense that one can move it.
So, how to express in Esperanto the idea of mobility, that movement is possible/permitted/characteristic.
the greater mobility of the population since the introduction of railways
while the efficiency of the British fleet gave it a mobility which doubled its material superiority.
Upward social mobility.
It depends, however, in addition on the natural mobility of the ions, and also on the opportunities for convection.
Mobility is an international word (ie has very similar form in many languages), but rule 15 gives inopportune forms - mobilitato, mobiliteto.
PIV gives movebleco with a quote that seems to be about mobility. But can moveblo be interpreted as eblo sin movi? What then of the meaning of movebla?
Mobilo is defined as a mobile (turniĝema pendaĵo), and Mobilizi is defined as mobilise (eg troops).
Hound_of_God (Mostra il profilo) 16 giugno 2015 21:10:43
An ability to be able to become moving?
Tempodivalse (Mostra il profilo) 16 giugno 2015 22:03:36
Mobility is an international word (ie has very similar form in many languages), but rule 15 gives inopportune forms - mobilitato, mobiliteto.How exactly are those forms inopportune? Is it -at/-et in the root? But there are many such words used already, without complaint: kompleto, libreto, proleto, autoritato, komitato, rabato etc.
But can moveblo be interpreted as eblo sin movi? What then of the meaning of movebla?I would have translated the English sentences you provided with moveblo without much hesitation. The difference appears to be merely one of agency - the referent being able to move itself vs. something else being able to move the referent. I'm not sure this is a large enough difference to warrant an entirely new word.
eshapard (Mostra il profilo) 16 giugno 2015 22:29:22
sudanglo:Perhaps we should try to describe this with more than one word.
So, how to express in Esperanto the idea of mobility, that movement is possible/permitted/characteristic.
the greater mobility of the population since the introduction of railways
while the efficiency of the British fleet gave it a mobility which doubled its material superiority.
Upward social mobility.
It depends, however, in addition on the natural mobility of the ions, and also on the opportunities for convection.
Mobility = ability/power to move ( povo movi ? aŭ movpovo? )
yyaann (Mostra il profilo) 16 giugno 2015 22:46:15
(Sin)moveblo
(Sin)movemo
(Sin)movpovo
(Sin)movprobablo
(Sin)mov-ŝanco
ktp...
As for "Upward social mobility", how about "socia suprenirpovo"?
Tempodivalse (Mostra il profilo) 17 giugno 2015 01:11:12
I still find plain moveblo not inappropriate for this meaning.
Kirilo81 (Mostra il profilo) 17 giugno 2015 09:50:03
A clear alternative would be moviĝivo/sinmovivo, but some dislike or don't understand the suffixoid -iv- (= -pov-/-kapabl-).
In my opinio sinmoveblo, however, is incorrect, as -ebl- gives the base a passive reading, and sin- would have nowhere to refer to.
sudanglo (Mostra il profilo) 17 giugno 2015 11:30:05
The difference appears to be merely one of agency - the referent being able to move itself vs. something else being able to move the referent.Precisely, Temp, therein lies the rub.
If the paciento ne estas movebla then the patient can't be moved. It has nothing to do with whether the patient is (or is not) paralysed.
And movebleco would seem to be derived from the meaning of movebla.
If moveblo is acceptable, then it has to be derived thus mov(o)-eblo (eblo de movo), and not mov(i)-eblo.
In the steamy jungle when the venomous snake descends onto the heroine's shoulder. The hero must cry out 'ne moviĝu' and not 'ne movu', but 'ne faru movon' seems OK.
Whilst movi is strictly transitive, this transitive force is diminished in movo, which seem less sensitive about the origin of the movement.
Ultimately then moveblo can't be derived from movebla, nor vice versa. (Movebla = mov(i)-ebla. Moveblo = mov(o)- eblo).
This, of course presents a cerbo-rompa problemo to the adherents of the theory about the fixed grammatical class of roots.
sudanglo (Mostra il profilo) 17 giugno 2015 12:26:57
yyaann:Maybe the fuziness of the "-ity" suffix calls for different endings in Esperanto depending on the context:I think you make a good point. Sometimes one needs a vagueness in a term.
(Sin)moveblo
(Sin)movemo
(Sin)movpovo
(Sin)movprobablo
(Sin)mov-ŝanco
ktp...
The whole thread arose from wondering about a translation of the MIME project (mobility and inclusion in a multilingual Europe) where in all the (18?) languages, mobility is referred to with a word of similar form and presumably of similar vagueness.
If PIV did not already have an entry for mobilo in the sense of a mobile, then the rule 15 solution would be mobil(ec)o kaj inkluzivo. Perhaps it would be better to have mobilaĵo for a mobile (turniĝema pendaĵo).
Also having mobila as the dictionary head-word entry would make better sense of mobilizi, which certainly does not mean adorn with mobiles.
Tempodivalse (Mostra il profilo) 17 giugno 2015 13:33:27
This, of course presents a cerbo-rompa problemo to the adherents of the theory about the fixed grammatical class of roots.What! Not again
Surely you don't think proponents of that hypothesis believe every root is 100% set in stone. No, it's just a guideline that is largely reliable, with some exceptions, as we are seeing here.Kirilo is right, -ebla strongly indicates passivity (lack of agency), but I wonder if this necessarily has to be so. I would understand sinmoveblo to mean "ability to move one's self" without much difficulty, even if I wouldn't use this form myself.
Tekstaro, however, provides disappointingly few results for reflexive constructions with -ebla:
-->Cetere estas la fundamento inter ili ia nesuperiĝebla kaj preskaŭ ne tro alte taksebla amindeco
-->Fraŭlino de Prelongo estis edziniĝebla
-->Ni kontraŭe vidas centron — ĉiam alilokiĝeblan — al kiu rekte, senpere direktiĝos la viva fluido
In that vein, perhaps one could say moviĝeblo. Or you could try to introduce an alternate definition of mobila.
the greater mobility of the population since the introduction of railwaysBut again, I don't see anything obviously inappropriate with moveblo for all of these examples. The agency seems to not be overly important, at least here.
while the efficiency of the British fleet gave it a mobility which doubled its material superiority.
Upward social mobility.
It depends, however, in addition on the natural mobility of the ions, and also on the opportunities for convection.