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Quick question

de Hound_of_God, 17 juin 2015

Messages : 6

Langue: English

Hound_of_God (Voir le profil) 17 juin 2015 00:45:18

If I wanted to say "Look through the window", could I say "Rigardu trafenestren"?

Would the -n to show direction be pointless because of the inclusion of "tra"?

Thank you.

Tempodivalse (Voir le profil) 17 juin 2015 01:09:46

Tra, like al, has direction built into the meaning, so the best translation would be Rigardu trafenestre (or, to use a more European construction, Rigardu tra la fenestro) - no accusative.

sudanglo (Voir le profil) 17 juin 2015 13:20:29

Marŝi tra la arbaro ĝis la dometo - walk through the forest to the cottage (which could be in the forest)

Marŝi tra la arbaron ĝis la urbo (the town is beyond the forest)

Mainly, 'tra' is not followed by an accusative, but there is documented usage (even Zamenhofian) where it is employed after verbs of motion in the meaning of 'right through'.

Tempodivalse (Voir le profil) 17 juin 2015 15:11:00

Mainly, 'tra' is not followed by an accusative, but there is documented usage (even Zamenhofian) where it is employed after verbs of motion in the meaning of 'right through'.
Interesting. In that case, wonder why it is that al cannot never be followed by an accusative, for the same emphasis - i.e., go to the referent all the way, rather than just part of the way.

I vaguely recall seeing somewhere that tra + accusative is dated, maybe like po + accusative.

tommjames (Voir le profil) 18 juin 2015 08:08:21

Tempodivalse:In that case, wonder why it is that al cannot never be followed by an accusative, for the same emphasis - i.e., go to the referent all the way, rather than just part of the way.
I don't think there's any rule against that, rather it's just that nobody ever really feels the need for that kind of emphasis with 'al'. The rule that -n never follows 'al' seems to stem from the assumption you would only ever want to use the -n to show direction, which of course would be redundant with 'al' because it already has direction in its meaning. But if you wanted to show something else, like "right-up-to-ness", I don't think there's any reason (besides sounding odd) that you can't.

eshapard (Voir le profil) 18 juin 2015 19:42:12

Hound_of_God:If I wanted to say "Look through the window", could I say "Rigardu trafenestren"?

Would the -n to show direction be pointless because of the inclusion of "tra"?

Thank you.
It seems to me that if you are looking through the window (trafenestre), then you are simply pointing your eyes at light coming through the window and focusing on something beyond the window.

You're focusing on the fact that you're looking at something on the other side of the window and that you can see it because light passes through the window. But the direction isn't really important. Are you on the inside, the outside? It doesn't matter. All that matters is that the window is between you and what you are looking at.

Adding the accusative of direction (trafenestren) shifts the focus to the direction. Maybe you aren't looking through the window at all. Maybe you're just looking in the same direction that you would be looking if you were staring out the window. Perhaps you're standing in front of the window trying to figure out what people on the other side could see through it.

So which is more important? The fact that you are looking through a window, or some particular direction that happens to pass through the window?

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