Postitused: 27
Keel: English
EldanarLambetur (Näita profiili) 26. juuni 2015 15:58.09
As with most word building, "hundaĉo" calls upon our human sense of pragmatics. Traditionally, cross-breeds are considered less pure, or lower in quality. Hence why a term that in its purest sense perhaps should just mean a dishevelled or poorly trained dog, can carry the meaning of cross-breed. Much like how "cur" can carry both of these meanings (e.g. according to google "an aggressive or unkempt dog, especially a mongrel" ).
seveer (Näita profiili) 26. juuni 2015 17:24.12
EldanarLambetur:On the dog issue, I think Esperanto usage seems much like the english, and I agree with the hover translations: mutt/mongrel/cur.First I have to take issue with "according to google." Does google have its own dictionary? If so, what sources is it using? Please be more specific. I have checked four dictionaries now, including the complete OED. The only support for this sense of the word is one definition of cur (only in the OED). It is not present among the approximately twenty definitions of mongrel or mutt.
As with most word building, "hundaĉo" calls upon our human sense of pragmatics. Traditionally, cross-breeds are considered less pure, or lower in quality. Hence why a term that in its purest sense perhaps should just mean a dishevelled or poorly trained dog, can carry the meaning of cross-breed. Much like how "cur" can carry both of these meanings (e.g. according to google "an aggressive or unkempt dog, especially a mongrel" ).
After the term gay was adopted for homosexuals, a whole generation of kids grew up saying "that's gay," where gay was a synonym for "bad." This was very hurtful. As views on homosexuality changed (as poignantly evidenced by this morning's U.S. Supreme court ruling) this usage became less and less common and is now considered bad form by most careful and sensitive speakers. And yet even this usage appears in the same dictionaries that do not mention the definition we are discussing for mutt/cur/mongrel. My point is that conflating an attitude expressed by some in usage, but not born out or accepted predominantly in mainstream lexicons or standing on its own merits, should not be taken lightly. I own a dog which is a mutt. When I call it a mutt I mean precisely one thing, and it is not disparaging.
I think that it is fine if cur/mongrel/mutt are accepted as alternative answers, I just don't think they should be offered as the model translation, when none of main dictionaries (including PIV) support that usage.
Vestitor (Näita profiili) 26. juuni 2015 18:33.11
seveer:After the term gay was adopted for homosexuals, a whole generation of kids grew up saying "that's gay," where gay was a synonym for "bad."It wasn't a synonym for bad, it was (still is for the yoot) a synonym for something a bit 'soft' or namby-pamby, or something uncool. Not bad.
seveer (Näita profiili) 26. juuni 2015 18:47.56
Vestitor:See entry 4.2: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gay#Adjective
It wasn't a synonym for bad, it was (still is for the yoot) a synonym for something a bit 'soft' or namby-pamby, or something uncool. Not bad.
Also note that while this usage is not flagged as "dated," the one you mention, directly above it at 4.1, is considered "dated." It's not just wiktionary. The same sense appears in the online OED at entry 9.
But maybe you have a better line on the "yoot" than the lexicographers
Tempodivalse (Näita profiili) 27. juuni 2015 9:54.42
Vestitor:I have definitely seen the term used in a generic disparaging sense of "that's bad" or "that's stupid".seveer:After the term gay was adopted for homosexuals, a whole generation of kids grew up saying "that's gay," where gay was a synonym for "bad."It wasn't a synonym for bad, it was (still is for the yoot) a synonym for something a bit 'soft' or namby-pamby, or something uncool. Not bad.
orthohawk (Näita profiili) 27. juuni 2015 13:02.42
Tempodivalse:That's the ONLY way I've ever seen it used.Vestitor:I have definitely seen the term used in a generic disparaging sense of "that's bad" or "that's stupid".seveer:After the term gay was adopted for homosexuals, a whole generation of kids grew up saying "that's gay," where gay was a synonym for "bad."It wasn't a synonym for bad, it was (still is for the yoot) a synonym for something a bit 'soft' or namby-pamby, or something uncool. Not bad.
Vestitor (Näita profiili) 27. juuni 2015 21:12.33
I don't live in the USA though and people here only use it refer to things that are considered poncey. Not 'bad'.
robbkvasnak (Näita profiili) 27. juuni 2015 21:47.12
Therefore, language - whether it be Esperanto or Ancient Chinese - cannot be programmed completely. Furthermore, every human being has her or his own "idiolect", i.e. their personal language and every group of people (like families, classes, offices, work halls, scouts, troups, actors, bankers, etc.) has its own "dialect" which cannot be foreseen by any articifial mind. When Dr. Zamenhof proposed Esperanto he did not think that the name of it would be Esperanto and no program could have soundly predicted that. The expression "krokodili" came about - it was not predictable. Nobody could "program" that into a language.
Then we have "poetic license". Without it our language would be very drab. We have slang.
Language is not a living thing but it is produced by living things - us. And we are creative, finite, hopeful, imaginative and more. Duolingo cannot be more than human.
orthohawk (Näita profiili) 27. juuni 2015 21:50.12
Vestitor:Surely not the only way? It still gets used regularly to refer to homosexual proclivities.Well, yes, THAT way, but I was referring to the other slang way, as opposed to thy "synonym for something a bit 'soft' or namby-pamby, or something uncool."
I don't live in the USA though and people here only use it refer to things that are considered poncey. Not 'bad'.
I've never heard in used in this way. Other than its "proper" meaning, I've only ever heard it used as a synonym for "stupid" or "bad"
Vestitor (Näita profiili) 27. juuni 2015 23:18.53
Are you a Quaker or something similar? What's all the thee-ing and thou-ing for?