orthohawk:Well, that has been the problem (or rather the LACK of any action has been the problem) in the past for at leaat a dozen people and God only knows how many others who just left without a word.

I have a full-time job. Any time I spent on these forums during the day is in fact time taken away from my normal paid work (meaning that my paid work will go later into the night to ensure it gets done). The very sad thread with Leporinjo was very fast-moving and the hurtful messages didn't get reported, and the damage was already long done before I or any admin even saw it. That case was the exception rather than the rule, I assume you are talking about that. But I don't have time to spend my life monitoring threads so people need to report things if they see them. And yes, sometimes people overreact and we aren't going to delete every single message that gets reported (if we did, you would find that many pro-religion messages would have been deleted).

orthohawk:

erinja:A lot of messages get reported simply for containing viewpoints that people disagree with. If we deleted every message that said "[insert any country's name here] is a totalitarian dictatorship", or "[leader of a certain country] is a dictator" then certain threads would be reduced by half (with different countries filling in the blank -- reported by different people depending on which country, of course).

I'm kind of surprised, given thine own complaint recently in a message to me about the Ukraine thread, that thee hasn't done just that.

Why would I do that? People have lots of opinions. Lots of people have opinions that I think are wrong, and they post those opinions to the internet. You can't delete people's posts just because you think they're wrong. Unless the message is a personal attack on a lernu user, on someone's ethnic group, etc, the person is free to express their wrong opinion. If I really cared that much about someone else's wrong opinion, I'd make my own post. "Hey, User, you're wrong and here's why: [...] "

I'm pretty annoyed by the aggressiveness of the Russia/Ukraine thread but people have started to get the message and now it is less cutthroat than before. I am fine with people discussing politics (even opinions that I personally consider to be totally wrong - it is instructive to see that there are actually people who really believe these things!) but they need to done down the aggressiveness. That has mostly happened, certain key players have started to get the message after getting lots of their stuff reported.

Also - when someone reports a message I look at the whole thread, or at least at the most recent part of the thread. If user X reports user Y's message for being against the rules, and if I look at the thread and I see that not only is Y's message not that bad, but X's message is way worse, X might get his or her own messages deleted from the thread, and Y's message may or may not be allowed to stand. Calling attention to a thread not currently being monitored is a double-edged sword, and you risk losing your own messages.

orthohawk:As I said before, I don't give a fig whether you're pro-religion or pro-atheist. it's the disparity in treatment of both camps that is the problem. One camp is seemingly free to say all sorts of vile, disgusting (and in some cases libelous) things about the other camp, in some cases with post after post after post, but then someone from the other camp speaks up, well, then it's like a squadron of raptors has been let loose.

We do our best to keep things even. You should report offensive messages as you see them. I do not follow the religion threads unless people start reporting stuff. And I'm not going to delete an atheist message just because that atheist says that he or she thinks religion is nonsense. As I said, we have gotten a lot of complaints from the pro-atheist side that the pro-religionists are allowed to say whatever they want and that only the atheist messages get deleted. Both sides seem to think things are intensely unfair.

erinja:

orthohawk:Well, that has been the problem (or rather the LACK of any action has been the problem) in the past for at leaat a dozen people and God only knows how many others who just left without a word.

I have a full-time job. Any time I spent on these forums during the day is in fact time taken away from my normal paid work (meaning that my paid work will go later into the night to ensure it gets done). The very sad thread with Leporinjo was very fast-moving and the hurtful messages didn't get reported, and the damage was already long done before I or any admin even saw it. That case was the exception rather than the rule, I assume you are talking about that. But I don't have time to spend my life monitoring threads so people need to report things if they see them. And yes, sometimes people overreact and we aren't going to delete every single message that gets reported (if we did, you would find that many pro-religion messages would have been deleted).

If they deserved to be deleted, then they should have been. There seeems to be misunderstanding that I'm only whinging about Christians' being "censored". I'm not. ANYONE who posts vile, disgusting and potentially libelous (and not just unpleasant) statements should be set to.

erinja:As I said, we have gotten a lot of complaints from the pro-atheist side that the pro-religionists are allowed to say whatever they want and that only the atheist messages get deleted. Both sides seem to think things are intensely unfair.

Of course they think that! and all the while posting vile, disgusting, libelous things about relgious people.

orthohawk: If they deserved to be deleted, then they should have been. There seeems to be misunderstanding that I'm only whinging about Christians' being "censored". I'm not. ANYONE who posts vile, disgusting and potentially libelous (and not just unpleasant) statements should be set to.

erinja:As I said, we have gotten a lot of complaints from the pro-atheist side that the pro-religionists are allowed to say whatever they want and that only the atheist messages get deleted. Both sides seem to think things are intensely unfair.

Of course they think that! and all the while posting vile, disgusting, libelous things about relgious people.

Like I said, report inappropriate posts. Atheists also think that religious people post vile, disgusting, libelous things about them, and get away with it.

Also, you are talking as if there has been something going on recently, but I couldn't possibly know which thread you are even referring to, it has been months since I've had a report of an inappropriate message on one of the religion threads. Admins delete any post that they see, and that seems inappropriate according to the site's terms of service.

You should not that calling someone wrong and calling their priests and prophets wrong doesn't constitute libel, it constitutes a legitimate difference of opinion. Calling their prophets and priests pedophiles would be a different story.

As is par for the course around here, we're getting bogged down with specifics when all I wanted to do was give some advice to persons who may be considering leaving because of bad behavior toward them from others and from what they perceive to be unfair treatment concerning the bad behavior (for WHATEVER reason) at the hands of administrators.

So here goes:

If you are thinking of joining the ranks of the fleeing, please reconsider. Esperanto is more, much more, than just one person or even a small group of persons. If I, for example, have contributed to your discomfort here, I most heartily apologize. I am a flawed human being and tend to lash out when attacked. So, if I have made your time here uncomfortable, don't let me run you off.

Don't let any one person run you off.

If you're still considering leaving (because of ANYone), please send me a private message. Maybe we can work something out.

From my experience, I haven't seen any censorship, in fact I had a debate with someone in another thread who claimed that homosexuality was a disgusting perversion. They weren't censored, so I don't think this is much of a problem. I don't think we have either a problem with censorship or an exodus of people.

rapn21:From my experience, I haven't seen any censorship, in fact I had a debate with someone in another thread who claimed that homosexuality was a disgusting perversion. They weren't censored, so I don't think this is much of a problem. I don't think we have either a problem with censorship or an exodus of people.

No problem with an exodus of people? I'd say 8 people in the past 6 months (and overall 12 thus far) is quite the exodus, and all for the same stupid (and very rectifiable) reason.

I have no idea who is on your list but I would not put money on the fact that they are all gone for good. I have known a number of instances where someone left and came back with a different username (for whatever reason - fresh start with new name, had second thoughts about leaving, whatever).

orthohawk:
If you are thinking of joining the ranks of the fleeing, please reconsider. Esperanto is more, much more, than just one person or even a small group of persons. If I, for example, have contributed to your discomfort here, I most heartily apologize. I am a flawed human being and tend to lash out when attacked. So, if I have made your time here uncomfortable, don't let me run you off.

Don't let any one person run you off.

Apologies accepted . (I'm thinking of the time when you and AllenHartwell and somebody else I don't remember, all got on me about the liva/maldekstra issue, for which I forgave you all long ago; the only reason I mention it is so you understand what I'm referring to). And I also apologise to you; while my beliefs on homosexuality haven't changed, when I look back on my previous comments on the topic, I'm embarrassed at how tainted with pride they are; they positively reek of it! So I'm very sorry about that.

As for Leporinjo, I don't think I ever saw the thread in question (I haven't been on the forum much lately), but I do understand how things can get so hot so fast that by the time the admin sees it, it's too late. That nearly happened to me with the aforementioned liva/maldekstra incident; I felt like everybody was ganging up on me, and that I wasn't wanted here, just because of my opinion on one word. I also was just about to leave on vacation, and if I'd left on that note, I'd first of all have upsetting thoughts about it while I was on vacation, and secondly might not have come back. Thankfully, erinja stepped in just in the nick of time, saving my vacation and my future on Lernu, for which I am forever grateful . I'm glad I stayed around, and also glad we have admins who, though imperfect, somewhat biased, and busy, as no mere human being can avoid; do their best to keep thing going smoothly around here, it's a lot better than some forums, which lack administration, and people can verbally slay eachother without restraint, or others, where the admin rules with an iron fist, and all posts that disagree with the admin's opinion are either deleted or quarantined in a locked thread. My brother was on one of the latter, until he got fed up and left. I think we have a pretty good balance here, and while unfortunate things happen sometimes, I think we've got it about as good as is humanly possible.

I don't have time to read through the whole thread right now, but I will only say this:

I classify myself as an agnostic in terms of religion, and a libertarian politically, so I don't really have a dog in this fight. But I can say that at least in some pockets of the Internet the anti-conservative/anti-religious bias is real. I do understand the sentiment. Sometimes both conservatives and religious people can be annoying in their pushiness, but it's not uncommon for a person to get ridiculed simply for identifying as either of these things.

(I don't have much Internet access lately, so don't expect a reply to replies to this message.)

If you see a message that you think breaks the rules of the site (blatant ad hominem attack, copyright violation, libel, etc.), report it to the administrators. This seems quite simple.

Lernu is not a democracy and there is, mercifully, no right to free speech here. The administrators are well within their rights to moderate the site as they see fit - and thus far, I have not seen any admin actions that I have found objectionable. Remember also that there is much more that goes on "behind the scenes" with regards to admin warnings and account deletions, which is not apparent at first glance, on the surface.

Like another poster above, I question whether this problem is perhaps simply perceived. When one has strong opinions on a subject, it is easy to overreact to opposing viewpoints. This applies to many topics, not just religion.

It is partly for this reason that I avoid political and religious discussions - the interlocutors usually do not participate with the aim of honestly considering various opinions, but rather to keep repeating their own. If you continuously are frustrated in such discussions, I suggest you simply stay out of them (as I do) and report others' egregious messages using the "Report" button above each post.

It would be helpful to provide concrete examples where you think the administrators have acted poorly, instead of simply saying "just look anywhere". I, and presumably other users, am not seeing what you are seeing.