orthohawk:

mbalicki:There's no proper “c” /t͡s/ sound in English,

Yes, there is. It appears at the end of the plural form of all nouns ending in a "t".

I cannot agree with thou. Plain /t͡s/ consonant most certainly does not appear in “-ts” as it is pronounced /ts/, which indeed can be precisely [t͡ss].

If you really want to find [t͡s] anywhere in English, you can do it only as an allophone of /t/ in some accents, for example in the word “tea”. In the Received Pronunciation ([t͡sɪˑi̯]) and Broad Cockney ([t͡səˑi̯]) it's a possible word-initial, intervocalic and word-final allophone; in Scouse ([t͡siː]) it's a possible syllable-initial and word-final allophone; in North Welsh accent ([t͡siː]) it's a word-initial and word-final allophone; in New Zealand ([t͡sɪˑi̯]) it's a word-initial allophone and in New Yorker ([t͡sɪˑi̯]) it's a possible syllable-initial and sometimes utterance-final allophone.

mbalicki:

orthohawk:

mbalicki:There's no proper “c” /t͡s/ sound in English,

Yes, there is. It appears at the end of the plural form of all nouns ending in a "t".

I cannot agree with thou. Plain /t͡s/ consonant most certainly does not appear in “-ts” as it is pronounced /ts/, which indeed can be precisely [t͡ss].

If you really want to find [t͡s] anywhere in English, you can do it only as an allophone of /t/ in some accents, for example in the word “tea”. In the Received Pronunciation ([t͡sɪˑi̯]) and Broad Cockney ([t͡səˑi̯]) it's a possible word-initial, intervocalic and word-final allophone; in Scouse ([t͡siː]) it's a possible syllable-initial and word-final allophone; in North Welsh accent ([t͡siː]) it's a word-initial and word-final allophone; in New Zealand ([t͡sɪˑi̯]) it's a word-initial allophone and in New Yorker ([t͡sɪˑi̯]) it's a possible syllable-initial and sometimes utterance-final allophone.

No one I have ever spoken to, has ever pronounced the ts in cats any differently than the esperanto "c" (well, except maybe Jonathan Frid as Barnabas Collins......I've been watching Dark Shadows on Hulu......)

orthohawk:No one I have ever spoken to, has ever pronounced the ts in cats any differently than the esperanto "c" (well, except maybe Jonathan Frid as Barnabas Collins......I've been watching Dark Shadows on Hulu......)

That's not a good point of reference, because as I hear many English speaking esperantists pronounce their “c”s as /ts/ (or /t͡ss/, at best).

I can't provide you any good examples of the “c”–“ts” difference, but maybe you'd like to hear “ĉ”–“tŝ” just as a proof of concept? Here you have “ĉîsta” vs “tŝîsta” and “vjeĉnî” vs “vjetŝnî”. Here you have four different “kêts” vs “plac”, “ocknǫć”, “kucajǫc” or “pracuś”. Do you hear the difference? For me, it is obvious but that's because in my native language /t͡s/ and /ts/ aren't allophones.

Not really “scii”, but I found pretty good pronunciation of “scienco” (the first one, obviously) or “policisto”.

mbalicki: Do you hear the difference? For me, it is obvious but that's because in my native language /t͡s/ and /ts/ aren't allophones.

Not really “scii”, but I found pretty good pronunciation of “scienco” (the first one, obviously) or “policisto”.

I think thee is letting thy native language (in which the two are different phonemes) interfere with thy proper hearing.

orthohawk:I think thee is letting thy native language (in which the two are different phonemes) interfere with thy proper hearing.

Does it? How could it, really? Am I hearing things which are not there?

mbalicki:

orthohawk:I think thee is letting thy native language (in which the two are different phonemes) interfere with thy proper hearing.

Does it? How could it, really? Am I hearing things which are not there?

That's very possible. It is a known phenomenon.

orthohawk:

mbalicki:

orthohawk:I think thee is letting thy native language (in which the two are different phonemes) interfere with thy proper hearing.

Does it? How could it, really? Am I hearing things which are not there?

That's very possible. It is a known phenomenon.

Connected often to schizophrenia.

No, but really. I'm not surprised that one from a language background which does not distinguish between /t͡s/ and /ts/ is not able to tell them apart. I, for once, was living for a long time in a deep lack of understanding why English speakers say they cannot pronounce properly German gentleman's surname “Bach” and rather do some funny approximation with /bak/. “How come” had I thought, “you cannot pronounce it properly, since so very often I hear English words like… well, «hear» or «how», «high», «house», «heat», «have», «he» &c.” The reason of these internal thoughts of mine were simple: in Polish we do not distinct between /h/ and /x/. And although while speaking English I've been correctly pronouncing words with /h/ and while speaking German I've been correctly pronouncing words with /x/ (I've been correctly repeating from hearing the native speakers) I didn't realise they're different sounds.

Not to mention your English vowels, which I really couldn't tell apart, not reproduce on my own. And it wasn't really until I've learned some phonology, that I've managed not only to distinguish between the vowels, repeat them (more or less precisely), understand the case of “Bach” and even come to a sudden realisation that for a long time I've been pronounced Polish and English “t”s differently (dental vs alveolar).

So, I believe that one day thou also will be able to hear the difference between /t͡s/ and /ts/.

mbalicki:Connected often to schizophrenia.

No, but really. I'm not surprised that one from a language background which does not distinguish between /t͡s/ and /ts/ is not able to tell them apart. I, for once, was living for a long time in a deep lack of understanding why English speakers say they cannot pronounce properly German gentleman's surname “Bach” and rather do some funny approximation with /bak/. “How come” had I thought, “you cannot pronounce it properly, since so very often I hear English words like… well, «hear» or «how», «high», «house», «heat», «have», «he» &c.” The reason of these internal thoughts of mine were simple: in Polish we do not distinct between /h/ and /x/. And although while speaking English I've been correctly pronouncing words with /h/ and while speaking German I've been correctly pronouncing words with /x/ (I've been correctly repeating from hearing the native speakers) I didn't realise they're different sounds.

Not to mention your English vowels, which I really couldn't tell apart, not reproduce on my own. And it wasn't really until I've learned some phonology, that I've managed not only to distinguish between the vowels, repeat them (more or less precisely), understand the case of “Bach” and even come to a sudden realisation that for a long time I've been pronounced Polish and English “t”s differently (dental vs alveolar).

So, I believe that one day thou also will be able to hear the difference between /t͡s/ and /ts/.

That /x/ versus /h/ bit gets even more interesting when you look at German's ach-laut /x/ and ich-laut /ç/. The /x/ comes after back vowels, like in Bach, while the /ç/ comes after front vowels, like in ich. And while English doesn't seem to have an ach-laut at all (that I've noticed), we certainly have ich-laut. We just interpret it as /hy/ instead. If you really listen to the first sound in huge or human, though, it sounds much more like the end of ich than any h+y combo. Tolkien even wrote his elvish languages with an initial "hy" to represent the sound.

As a side-note: I used to pronounce Bach as /bak/ when I was younger. After taking German in high school, though, those /ĥ/ sounds are fully engrained, and today I can't pronounce it /bak/ without a specific effort.

nornen:

SPX:Going simply from what I've learned from the "Kurso de Esperanto" (which I trust) it should be essentially pronounced like "sit-SEE-ahs."

A more experienced speaker can correct me on this.

You should omit the "i": STSEE-ahs.

You're saying you pronounce an ST sound, as in the word "strike" or "store"? That certainly goes against everything I've heard before.

/x/ sound is the same as Esperanto "ĥ" right?

SPX:You're saying you pronounce an ST sound, as in the word "strike" or "store"?

It it not "ST" sound. IT is an S then a C (which we argued in the 2nd page whether it is "TS" or not)