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Questions
ca, kivuye
Ubutumwa 9
ururimi: English
sudanglo (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 5 Mukakaro 2015 10:16:08
Well there isn't much difference in meaning between You coming tonight? and Are you coming tonight? - so making the question explicit with ĉu, rather than relying on intonation, seems fine.
But what about:
1. You're not annoyed that I invited Susan to the wedding?
2. Aren't you annoyed that I invited Susan to the wedding?
These don't have the same pragmatic function.
Miland (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 5 Mukakaro 2015 10:38:28
sudanglo:1. You're not annoyed that I invited Susan to the wedding?Indeed, I would use ĉu before the main clause for the first, but ĉu ne afterwards for the second.
2. Aren't you annoyed that I invited Susan to the wedding?
These don't have the same pragmatic function.
Bemused (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 5 Mukakaro 2015 13:22:07
sudanglo:1. You're not annoyed that I invited Susan to the wedding?What's the difference?
2. Aren't you annoyed that I invited Susan to the wedding?
These don't have the same pragmatic function.
To me they are simply two ways of asking the same question.
1) Relies on intonation.
2) Relies on word order.
EldanarLambetur (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 5 Mukakaro 2015 18:02:59
Bemused:The first one implies that the speaker doesn't think you should be angry or had reason to believe you were angry, and the second one implies that the speaker thinks you should be angry. Very different.sudanglo:1. You're not annoyed that I invited Susan to the wedding?What's the difference?
2. Aren't you annoyed that I invited Susan to the wedding?
These don't have the same pragmatic function.
To me they are simply two ways of asking the same question.
1) Relies on intonation.
2) Relies on word order.
Breto (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 5 Mukakaro 2015 18:05:46
Bemused:I disagree. There is a noticeable difference of mood. To me, questions in English that have the same word order as statements always seem to have some amount of incredulousness, almost like there is an expected answer, and you dare the other person to give a different one. Think of the difference between these two sentences:sudanglo:1. You're not annoyed that I invited Susan to the wedding?What's the difference?
2. Aren't you annoyed that I invited Susan to the wedding?
These don't have the same pragmatic function.
To me they are simply two ways of asking the same question.
1) Relies on intonation.
2) Relies on word order.
"What did you do?"
"You did what?"
I've been wondering if Esperanto has an equivalent distinction, too.
sudanglo (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 6 Mukakaro 2015 10:35:16
"What did you do?"That's a different issue - one of emphasis rather than presumption of answer.
"You did what?"
I've been wondering if Esperanto has an equivalent distinction, too.
You can emphasise by fronting an object (departing from the normal order)
So 'Tion mi diris' is more like 'That's what I said' than 'I said that'
But a question with a K-word puts the K-word first.
So you would have to emphasise by repetition (Kion! Kion vi diris) or by ending the K-word (Vi diris kion!)
Kirilo81 (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 6 Mukakaro 2015 13:27:29
sudanglo:1. Vin ne ĝenas, ke mi invitis Susan al la nupto, ĉu?
1. You're not annoyed that I invited Susan to the wedding?
2. Aren't you annoyed that I invited Susan to the wedding?
2. Ĉu vin ne ĝenas, ke mi invitis Susan al la nupto?
Breto (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 8 Mukakaro 2015 18:01:26
sudanglo:I think emphasis is a part of any example with a statement-order question in English. Sure, when there are question words, the result sounds more emphatic (and angrier, unless that's just me), but what about this example:"What did you do?"That's a different issue - one of emphasis rather than presumption of answer.
"You did what?"
I've been wondering if Esperanto has an equivalent distinction, too.
You can emphasise by fronting an object (departing from the normal order)
So 'Tion mi diris' is more like 'That's what I said' than 'I said that'
But a question with a K-word puts the K-word first.
So you would have to emphasise by repetition (Kion! Kion vi diris) or by ending the K-word (Vi diris kion!)
Did you paint it blue? (I don't know if you did or not.)
You painted it blue? (I have reason to think you did, and find it hard to believe.)
DuckFiasco (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 8 Mukakaro 2015 19:19:51
For questions, I'm not personally abandoning "cxu". For emphasis, word order fronting strikes me as the safest choice, or tagging with "ĉu/ĉu ne".
I agree with the OP about the nuances in those two questions. So I'd show that by:
You aren't coming? - Ĉu vi ne venos?
Aren't you coming? - Vi venos, ĉu ne?