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от sudanglo, 05 юли 2015

Съобщения: 9

Език: English

sudanglo (Покажи профила) 05 юли 2015, 10:16:08

There was an earlier discussion about whether it was legitimate to use ĉu-less questions in Esperanto. The view was expressed that the ĉu shouldn't be left out.

Well there isn't much difference in meaning between You coming tonight? and Are you coming tonight? - so making the question explicit with ĉu, rather than relying on intonation, seems fine.

But what about:

1. You're not annoyed that I invited Susan to the wedding?
2. Aren't you annoyed that I invited Susan to the wedding?

These don't have the same pragmatic function.

Miland (Покажи профила) 05 юли 2015, 10:38:28

sudanglo:1. You're not annoyed that I invited Susan to the wedding?
2. Aren't you annoyed that I invited Susan to the wedding?
These don't have the same pragmatic function.
Indeed, I would use ĉu before the main clause for the first, but ĉu ne afterwards for the second.

Bemused (Покажи профила) 05 юли 2015, 13:22:07

sudanglo:1. You're not annoyed that I invited Susan to the wedding?
2. Aren't you annoyed that I invited Susan to the wedding?
These don't have the same pragmatic function.
What's the difference?
To me they are simply two ways of asking the same question.
1) Relies on intonation.
2) Relies on word order.

EldanarLambetur (Покажи профила) 05 юли 2015, 18:02:59

Bemused:
sudanglo:1. You're not annoyed that I invited Susan to the wedding?
2. Aren't you annoyed that I invited Susan to the wedding?
These don't have the same pragmatic function.
What's the difference?
To me they are simply two ways of asking the same question.
1) Relies on intonation.
2) Relies on word order.
The first one implies that the speaker doesn't think you should be angry or had reason to believe you were angry, and the second one implies that the speaker thinks you should be angry. Very different.

Breto (Покажи профила) 05 юли 2015, 18:05:46

Bemused:
sudanglo:1. You're not annoyed that I invited Susan to the wedding?
2. Aren't you annoyed that I invited Susan to the wedding?
These don't have the same pragmatic function.
What's the difference?
To me they are simply two ways of asking the same question.
1) Relies on intonation.
2) Relies on word order.
I disagree. There is a noticeable difference of mood. To me, questions in English that have the same word order as statements always seem to have some amount of incredulousness, almost like there is an expected answer, and you dare the other person to give a different one. Think of the difference between these two sentences:

"What did you do?"
"You did what?"

I've been wondering if Esperanto has an equivalent distinction, too.

sudanglo (Покажи профила) 06 юли 2015, 10:35:16

"What did you do?"
"You did what?"

I've been wondering if Esperanto has an equivalent distinction, too.
That's a different issue - one of emphasis rather than presumption of answer.

You can emphasise by fronting an object (departing from the normal order)

So 'Tion mi diris' is more like 'That's what I said' than 'I said that'

But a question with a K-word puts the K-word first.

So you would have to emphasise by repetition (Kion! Kion vi diris) or by ending the K-word (Vi diris kion!)

Kirilo81 (Покажи профила) 06 юли 2015, 13:27:29

sudanglo:
1. You're not annoyed that I invited Susan to the wedding?
2. Aren't you annoyed that I invited Susan to the wedding?
1. Vin ne ĝenas, ke mi invitis Susan al la nupto, ĉu?
2. Ĉu vin ne ĝenas, ke mi invitis Susan al la nupto?

Breto (Покажи профила) 08 юли 2015, 18:01:26

sudanglo:
"What did you do?"
"You did what?"

I've been wondering if Esperanto has an equivalent distinction, too.
That's a different issue - one of emphasis rather than presumption of answer.

You can emphasise by fronting an object (departing from the normal order)

So 'Tion mi diris' is more like 'That's what I said' than 'I said that'

But a question with a K-word puts the K-word first.

So you would have to emphasise by repetition (Kion! Kion vi diris) or by ending the K-word (Vi diris kion!)
I think emphasis is a part of any example with a statement-order question in English. Sure, when there are question words, the result sounds more emphatic (and angrier, unless that's just me), but what about this example:

Did you paint it blue? (I don't know if you did or not.)
You painted it blue? (I have reason to think you did, and find it hard to believe.)

DuckFiasco (Покажи профила) 08 юли 2015, 19:19:51

I think it's also important to recognize that not every language uses stress or intonation to reflect emphasis, e.g. Chinese, Japanese, even French most of the time.

For questions, I'm not personally abandoning "cxu". For emphasis, word order fronting strikes me as the safest choice, or tagging with "ĉu/ĉu ne".

I agree with the OP about the nuances in those two questions. So I'd show that by:
You aren't coming? - Ĉu vi ne venos?
Aren't you coming? - Vi venos, ĉu ne?

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