la lingvaj respondoj
de orthohawk, 2015-julio-09
Mesaĝoj: 18
Lingvo: English
orthohawk (Montri la profilon) 2015-julio-09 18:51:48
There are some very interesting (and enlightening) passages. E.g.
"La vorto "bezonesti" estas kunmetita tute regule, kaj vi povas gxin uzadi, Sed entute ni konsilas pli uzadi cxiam formojn simplajn anstataux kunmetitajn. kunmetado de vortoj estas karaktera eco de la germana lingvo kaj al tiu cxi lingvo gxi efektive donas grandan ricxecon de formoj. sed en nia lingvo la vortoj pleje estas pli naturaj kaj pli bonsonaj se ili estas ne kunligitaj sed uzataj aparte"
Basically, he says that although compounding (such as "bluas" or "pravas" ) is perfectly legal, "but in our language the words mostly are more natural and more euphonious if they are not linked together but used separately". IOW, it's better to say "estas blua" and "estas prava" than "bluas" and "pravas"
yyaann (Montri la profilon) 2015-julio-09 19:25:15
Having said that it's interesting that keeping roots separate is exactly the direction the language took, going even a step further with suffixes ending up being used has roots such as indi, eta, acxi, etc.
orthohawk (Montri la profilon) 2015-julio-09 20:16:09
yyaann:Ok, how are bluas and pravas compound words? To me they are just single-root words with a different ending than the most obvious one for these roots.Z himself considered all the different morphemes (including apparently the verb "endings)) to be separate words: q.v Fudamenta Krestomatio the section titled "el la unua libro de la lingvo esperanto" in section II. a): "Mi arangxis plenan dismemrigon de la ideoj en memstarjn vortojn, tiel ke la tuta lingvo, anstataux vortoj en diversaj gramatikaj formoj, konsistas sole nur el sensxangxaj vortoj.
Having said that it's interesting that keeping roots separate is exactly the direction the language took, going even a step further with suffixes ending up being used has roots such as indi, eta, acxi, etc.
I introduced a complete dismemberment of ideas into independent words, so that the whole language consists, not of words in different states of grammatical inflexion, but of unchangeable words.
nornen (Montri la profilon) 2015-julio-09 21:15:10
est'as blu'a are two compound word (2 2).
est'as blu'a'j are two compound word (2 3).
How can be the latter two have less "linked togehter" words than the first?
Breto (Montri la profilon) 2015-julio-10 07:02:18
For starters, if it can't stand alone, I don't know how it could be a word. You don't see "blu" alone in a sentence. "Blua", sure..."blue", "bluas", "bluo", etc, those are all words, but "blu-" is a root, and needs something to make it a word. Without an ending, we can't be sure what function it serves in a sentence.
Beyond that, if "as" is a word, then is "o" a word? What about "j"? How does one pronounce "j", anyway? What part of speech is it? How would you use it in a sentence?
Of course, if "as" is not a word, then in what way is "bluas" a compound word?
nornen (Montri la profilon) 2015-julio-10 07:18:50
Zamenhof:11. Les mots composés s’obtiennent par la simple réunion des éléments qui les forment, écrits ensemble, mais séparés par de petits traits1). Le mot fondamental doit toujours être à la fin. Les terminaisons grammaticales sont considérées comme des mots. Ex.: vapor'ŝip'o (bateau à vapeur) est formé de: vapor ― vapeur, ŝip ― bateau, o ― terminaison caractéristique du substantif."The grammatical endings are considered to be words."
Just an Esperanto idiosyncracy. All morphemes are words, although they might not be syntactical words (which is only the case with "memstaraj" words like mi, kiu, tuj, du, ktp).
Strange combinations may arise, as for instance tiele:
tiel - tiel ainsi, de cette manière | thus, so | so | такъ | tak
e - e marque l’adverbe; ex. bon'e bien | ending of adverbs; e. g. bon' good ― bon'e well | Endung des Adverbs; z. B. bon'e gut | окончаніе нарѣчія; напр. bon'e хорошо | zakończenie przysłówka; np. bon'e dobrze.
So we take an adverb (tiel), and add the ending of adverbs (e), and we get another adverb which means apparently something different. If tiele is a well-formed word, is tieleeee also a well-formed word? How about nun, nune, and nunee?
yyaann (Montri la profilon) 2015-julio-10 07:33:42
nornen:blu'as is one compound word (2).Exactly. Besides I don't see how Z deeming clear compound words such as bezonesti (two roots plus an inflexion) inelegant demonstrates that he would also advise against using bluas (one root plus an inflexion). That might be taking it a little too far.
est'as blu'a are two compound word (2 2).
est'as blu'a'j are two compound word (2 3).
How can be the latter two have less "linked togehter" words than the first?
Kirilo81 (Montri la profilon) 2015-julio-10 09:13:32
nornen:So we take an adverb (tiel), and add the ending of adverbs (e), and we get another adverb which means apparently something different. If tiele is a well-formed word, is tieleeee also a well-formed word? How about nun, nune, and nunee?There is an implicit rule that the categorial endings can't be combined with each other (*nuneo) nor become kernel of a new compound (*oa) - one should understand the formulation of §11 FG in a narrow sense, viz the categorial endings are considered words in the realm of word formation. In fact in complex formations like the compounding derivations perlabori or subtaso they are the main element ([per laboro]-i, [sub taso]-o).
tiele, nune IMHO don't have a meaning different from tiel, nun, they're just hypercharacterized and confined to the function of a phrasal adverb (instead of a modifier: Tiele ni povas esti kontentaj - Ni povas esti tiel/*tiele kontentaj).
yyaann (Montri la profilon) 2015-julio-10 10:13:06
Kirilo81:There is an implicit rule that the categorial endings can't be combined with each other (*nuneo) nor become kernel of a new compound (*oa)I can think of an exception though: vivuo ( krio "vivu" ), which is featured in the PIV. So maybe it's possible in theory, just not used very often in practice because the need hardly ever arises?
WereVrock (Montri la profilon) 2015-julio-10 10:50:00
Breto:You don't see "blu" alone in a sentence. "Blua", sure..."blue", "bluas", "bluo", etc, those are all words, but "blu-" is a root, and needs something to make it a word. Without an ending, we can't be sure what function it serves in a sentence.I think that "blu" has a meaning even though we cannot easily use it alone. For example we have "feko" and people use "fek" as an equivalent of "sh*t".