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Ubutumwa 6

ururimi: English

Alkanadi (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 4 Nyandagaro 2015 08:28:20

Which one is correct?

Doctors know that they (referring to themselves) are smart.
Kuracistoj scias ke ili estas inteligentaj.
Kuracistoj scias ke si estas inteligentaj.
Kuracistoj scias ke sij estas inteligentaj.

I feel like the first one is correct but I also feel that a reflexive pronoun should be used.

tommjames (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 4 Nyandagaro 2015 08:31:25

Only the first one is correct. "Si" refers to the subject, and so cannot itself be the subject. "Sij" is not an Esperanto word.

sudanglo (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 4 Nyandagaro 2015 10:16:41

I imagine that you looked at the sentence Kuracistoj scias ke ili estas inteligentaj, and thought I can't tell if the 'ili' refers to the doctors or some other group of people.

This is correct, out of context you can't say for certain (also true in English).

If there is a risk of misunderstanding you could say Kuracistoj scias ke ili mem estas inteligentaj.

It may be true that neniu kuracisto opinias sin stulta. I wouldn't know.

mbalicki (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 4 Nyandagaro 2015 10:19:41

Alkanadi:Which one is correct?

Doctors know that they (referring to themselves) are smart.
Kuracistoj scias, ke ili estas inteligentaj.
Kuracistoj scias, ke si estas inteligentaj.
Kuracistoj scias, ke sij estas inteligentaj.

I feel like the first one is correct but I also feel that a reflexive pronoun should be used.
Your sentence consists of two clauses kuracistoj scias and ili estas inteligentaj, joined together with the cojunction ke.

Rule for the si pronoun is that it cannot refer to the subject outside of the clause it's used in. So you cannot say *si estas inteligentaj* (and definitely not *sij*, because si is a pronoun, which doesn't inflect by grammatical number).

More on this topic you can find of course in PMEG.

Alkanadi (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 4 Nyandagaro 2015 13:33:21

sudanglo:I imagine that you looked at the sentence Kuracistoj scias ke ili estas inteligentaj, and thought I can't tell if the 'ili' refers to the doctors or some other group of people.
That is exactly what happened.
Rule for the si pronoun is that it cannot refer to the subject outside of the clause it's used in. So you cannot say *si estas inteligentaj* (and definitely not *sij*, because si is a pronoun, which doesn't inflect by grammatical number).
That is very clear. Thank you.

DuckFiasco (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 4 Nyandagaro 2015 22:27:33

And think of "si" as himself/herself/itself/themselves.

That way, you wouldn't consider "li pensis, ke si* (himself?) estas inteligenta" but "li pensis, ke li estas inteligenta". And sentences like "Li diris, ke lia fratino venis kun siaj ("herself's") amikoj" aren't confusing about whose friends they are.

For clarity in your original sentence, "mem" means "the same, not others". So in case of ambiguity, just throw it in there: Ili diras, ke ili mem estas inteligentaj.

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