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Malforta and Senforta and ig/iĝ

от Vestitor, 17 август 2015

Съобщения: 13

Език: English

Vestitor (Покажи профила) 17 август 2015, 13:19:39

Also malfortiĝas and senfortiĝas.

On the Duolingo course in the section concerning the ig/iĝ affixes, there is a grammar disussion where they use senforta/senfortigis/senfortiĝis as examples and translate these as weak/weakened.

I thought malforta was weak. That's what is in my Wells dictionary. Unfortunately it is also the word given for faint, as in I fainted = Mi malfortiĝis, but which could also be Mi senfortiĝis...?

I can't quite get the use of sen in this way with the ig/iĝ because the word sen on its own means 'deprive of' and so senforta on its own already means 'become weak/weaken', right?

What are the words for 'faint' and 'weak'. They can't be the same because they mean different things.

Alkanadi (Покажи профила) 17 август 2015, 13:56:03

From Gerda Malaperis
Tom: Jen ŝi estas. Ni pravis. Ŝi apenaŭ havis la tempon alveni ĝis la angulo, jam ŝi falis. Videble, ŝi estas nekonscia. Ŝi perdis la konscion kaj falis.

Bob: Ĉu ŝi ankoraŭ vivas?

Tom: Jes. Ne timu. Ŝi perdis la konscion, sed ŝi ne perdis la vivon. La koro batas. Ĝi batas malforte, sed tamen batas. Ŝi do vivas. Eble ŝi apenaŭ vivas, sed ŝi vivas.

Bob: Kion ni faru?

Tom: Kion vi opinias?

Bob: Ŝajnas, ke ŝi dormas.

Vestitor (Покажи профила) 17 август 2015, 14:02:14

This doesn't really shed much light on word choices or accurate meanings.

There really has to be a translation of Esperanto texts posted in this section, so that anyone can follow discussions.

Alkanadi (Покажи профила) 17 август 2015, 14:13:10

Vestitor:This doesn't really shed much light on word choices or accurate meanings.

There really has to be a translation of Esperanto texts posted in this section, so that anyone can follow discussions.
It is beating weakly, but beating however.
Ĝi batas malforte, sed tamen batas.

Visible she is unconscious. She lost consciousness and fell.
Videble, ŝi estas nekonscia. Ŝi perdis la konscion kaj falis.

One possible word for faint = Nekonscias
One possible word to describe weakness = Malforta

I wish I could add more but this is all I can say based on the text.

Alkanadi (Покажи профила) 17 август 2015, 14:23:08

malforta - faint, light, weak
malforte - lightly, weakly
malfortigi - weaken
malfortiĝi - abate, weaken
sveni - faint, swoon
http://www.esperanto-panorama.net/vortaro/eoen.htm

By the way, the word faint can mean losing consciousness or it can also mean weak.

Vestitor (Покажи профила) 17 август 2015, 14:51:08

Don't take this the wrong way, but I know the difference between the words in English, its my native language. I also know that malforta is used for weak (and its derivatives), but didn't know the word senforta and its specific meanings - specifically weak or faint (as in lose consciousness). I also know sveni.

erinja (Покажи профила) 17 август 2015, 15:01:53

Senforta is much stronger than malforta. It's akin to being unable to move under your own power versus being weak but mobile. Personally, I think senforta is a poor translation for weak.

tommjames (Покажи профила) 17 август 2015, 15:16:39

Vestitor:I can't quite get the use of sen in this way with the ig/iĝ because the word sen on its own means 'deprive of' and so senforta on its own already means 'become weak/weaken', right?
No that's not correct, 'sen' just means without. For the meaning of "deprive of" you need to add -IG, so:

senforta = powerless / weak
senfortigi = render powerless / weaken
senfortiĝi = become powerless / get weak

nornen (Покажи профила) 18 август 2015, 06:15:32

Vestitor:What are the words for 'faint' and 'weak'. They can't be the same because they mean different things.
This kind of logic rarely works. If you argue like this, you would end up with questions like these:

Spanish -> Esperanto:
What are the words for "ser" and "estar"? They can't be the same (esti) because they mean different things.

English -> Esperanto:
What are the words for "divide" and "share"? They can't be the same (dividi) because they mean different things.

German -> Esperanto:
What are the words for "du" and "ihr"? They can't be the same (vi) because they mean different things.

German -> English:
What are the words for "Angst" and "Furcht"? They can't be the same (fear) because they mean different things.

Spanish -> English:
How can the sky be clue and the sea be blue? They can't be the same (blue) because they mean different things (azul=/=celeste).

Etc. pp.

Vestitor (Покажи профила) 18 август 2015, 10:08:23

That long schoolboy philosophy list has nothing at all to do with my question about the possible differences in meaning between:

Malforta/senforta, -igi/iĝi, weak/faint and weaken.

Dividing and sharing are not the same thing at all. You can divide something without sharing it, even if you refer to each part as 'a share'.

Nuances matter. I'm interesting in being accurate. Auxilliary languages especially need this.

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