rikforto:He feared America, land where Europe's most daring had immigrated, until he decided we had too many black folks corroding our society. Charming as ever.

Why would he have cared about black folks in America? What makes you think like that?
Let's take a look at Jesse Owens. He repeatedly said that he was very fond of the Olympic Games in 1936 because the german crowd supported him very much and even Hitler congratulated him personally for his victories. While in the racist US it took 20 years until Owens received some kind of acknowledgment. Charming as ever.

Jesse Owens:Hitler didn't snub me -it was FDR who snubbed me. The president didn’t even send me a telegram.

rikforto:For example, he privately wrote about how he wanted to get rid of Christianity, but promoted Protestantism because it helped maintain his popularity.

That doesn't make sense because Hitler was catholic. Where do your wild stories come from?

Sunjo:A friend of mine told me that her grandmother (in Germany) was forced to learn Esperanto in school because Hitler wanted it. It's hard to believe (especially if you have read Ulrich Lins "The dangerous language" ), but there is also no reason to believe that this grandmother is not telling the truth.

If Esperanto was required in German schools, there should be a record of it. Although it's hard to believe the Nazis would have promoted a language whose inventor was Jewish.

rikforto:
But derisively telling me to cease with hardly a word is not helpful or convincing. Is there any particular reason this example is historically unsound?

The existence of marvellous people whose entire careers are or have been spent in Europe perhaps?

I'm not interested in the minutiae of Hitler's possible table talk. I don't think he feared war with any country, even if he would rather have not opened certain fronts. He declared war on Russia if you remember.

ustra:

rikforto:He feared America, land where Europe's most daring had immigrated, until he decided we had too many black folks corroding our society. Charming as ever.

Why would he have cared about black folks in America? What makes you think like that?
Let's take a look at Jesse Owens. He repeatedly said that he was very fond of the Olympic Games in 1936 because the german crowd supported him very much and even Hitler congratulated him personally for his victories. While in the racist US it took 20 years until Owens received some kind of acknowledgment. Charming as ever.

It is no coincidence I did not hang my arguments on the events of that day, though they are actually indicative. Said Albert Speer, "Hitler said with a shrug; their physiques were stronger than those of civilized whites and hence should be excluded from future games." Hitler saw the experience as confirmation, not repudiation, of his racial theories.

ustra:

Jesse Owens:Hitler didn't snub me -it was FDR who snubbed me. The president didn’t even send me a telegram.

rikforto:For example, he privately wrote about how he wanted to get rid of Christianity, but promoted Protestantism because it helped maintain his popularity.

That doesn't make sense because Hitler was catholic. Where do your wild stories come from?

Wikipedia has collected a number of quotes and arguments from scholars, which I find persuasive.

Vestitor:

rikforto:
But derisively telling me to cease with hardly a word is not helpful or convincing. Is there any particular reason this example is historically unsound?

The existence of marvellous people whose entire careers are or have been spent in Europe perhaps?

I'm not interested in the minutiae of Hitler's possible table talk. I don't think he feared war with any country, even if he would rather have not opened certain fronts. He declared war on Russia if you remember.

I doubt living in Europe gives you any special insight to these matters in general, though I acknowledge you might be withholding some specific insight on this matter. But given your writ large dismissal of historical evidence (the minutiae of Hitler's possible table talk) you will have to forgive me for continuing to find your argument, such as it is, without content.

rikforto:...you will have to forgive me for continuing to find your argument, such as it is, without content.

I don't blame you. My reluctance to footnote everything with reams of citations (or possibly unreliable bilge from Wikipedia) is a common internet problem; where people want you to point them to two dozen other websites where other people are saying the same thing.

Hitler is known to have admired England and English aristocracy, and mimicked some aspects of the culture, but it didn't stop him sending the luftwaffe to flatten as much of England as possible. In retrospect that admiration was less important to him than that he got his way. That's why I'm not concerned with the minutiae beyond it being interesting factoids. The hyper-detailed psychopathology of Hitler has become a bit boring.

Vestitor:

rikforto:...you will have to forgive me for continuing to find your argument, such as it is, without content.

I don't blame you. My reluctance to footnote everything with reams of citations (or possibly unreliable bilge from Wikipedia) is a common internet problem; where people want you to point them to two dozen other websites where other people are saying the same thing.

Hitler is known to have admired England and English aristocracy, and mimicked some aspects of the culture, but it didn't stop him sending the luftwaffe to flatten as much of England as possible. In retrospect that admiration was less important to him than that he got his way. That's why I'm not concerned with the minutiae beyond it being interesting factoids. The hyper-detailed psychopathology of Hitler has become a bit boring.

I can actually work with that response.

If you go back to the particular context I first raised the example in, it was to point out that the Third Reich (and not specifically Hitler, though the two are obviously entwined) often changed or contradicted its positions on matters. You're absolutely right that his views on the English aristocracy still allowed him to flatten much of England. That is exactly the point I was trying to make before you told me to "cease".

As to the historical validity of the original example I used, we are sadly no closer to settling the matter. I'm genuinely curious if someone has some substantive insight; a Google search has yeilded little for me. Nonetheless, if you're bored by the question, by all means, abdicate the thread.

(Really not doing well with the "send once" idea this morning. )

rikforto:

ustra:

rikforto:He feared America, land where Europe's most daring had immigrated, until he decided we had too many black folks corroding our society. Charming as ever.

Why would he have cared about black folks in America? What makes you think like that?
Let's take a look at Jesse Owens. He repeatedly said that he was very fond of the Olympic Games in 1936 because the german crowd supported him very much and even Hitler congratulated him personally for his victories. While in the racist US it took 20 years until Owens received some kind of acknowledgment. Charming as ever.

It is no coincidence I did not hang my arguments on the events of that day, though they are actually indicative. Said Albert Speer, "Hitler said with a shrug; their physiques were stronger than those of civilized whites and hence should be excluded from future games." Hitler saw the experience as confirmation, not repudiation, of his racial theories.

And from this you derive your conclusion that Hitler feared America because of the black folks?

rikforto:

ustra:

rikforto:For example, he privately wrote about how he wanted to get rid of Christianity, but promoted Protestantism because it helped maintain his popularity.

That doesn't make sense because Hitler was catholic. Where do your wild stories come from?

Wikipedia has collected a number of quotes and arguments from scholars, which I find persuasive.

Of course, almighty Wikipedia again... Actually, your statement about Hitler getting rid of Christianity and promoting Protestantism is one of most absurd I have ever seen. Not only was he catholic but also extremely popular among germans till the end. What you have written makes no sense at all.

Hitler, 23 March 1933:The Government, being resolved to undertake the political and moral purification of our public life, are creating and securing the conditions necessary for a really profound revival of religious life.... The National Government regard the two Christian Confessions as the weightiest factors for the maintenance of our nationality. They will respect the agreements concluded between them and the federal States. Their rights are not to be infringed.... It will be the Government's care to maintain honest co-operation between Church and State; the struggle against materialistic views and for a real national community is just as much in the interest of the German nation as in that of the welfare of our Christian faith. The Government of the Reich, who regard Christianity as the unshakable foundation of the morals and moral code of the nation, attach the greatest value to friendly relations with the Holy See and are endeavouring to develop them.

ustra:

rikforto:

ustra:Why would he have cared about black folks in America? What makes you think like that?
Let's take a look at Jesse Owens. He repeatedly said that he was very fond of the Olympic Games in 1936 because the german crowd supported him very much and even Hitler congratulated him personally for his victories. While in the racist US it took 20 years until Owens received some kind of acknowledgment. Charming as ever.

It is no coincidence I did not hang my arguments on the events of that day, though they are actually indicative. Said Albert Speer, "Hitler said with a shrug; their physiques were stronger than those of civilized whites and hence should be excluded from future games." Hitler saw the experience as confirmation, not repudiation, of his racial theories.

And from this you derive your conclusion that Hitler feared America because of the black folks?

I've been very candid that I can't find the source in which I read that he feared America for its immigrants and later recanted over our black population. But the events of that day are at least consistent with his beliefs blacks were degenerate and show he was willing to express that.

ustra:

rikforto:Wikipedia has collected a number of quotes and arguments from scholars, which I find persuasive.

Of course, almighty Wikipedia again... Actually, your statement about Hitler getting rid of Christianity and promoting Protestantism is one of most absurd I have ever seen. Not only was he catholic but also extremely popular among germans till the end. What you have written makes no sense at all.

I mean, do you have a specific issue with their citations? There is nothing absurd about a politicians holding one view in public but another in private.

ustra:

Hitler, 23 March 1933:The Government, being resolved to undertake the political and moral purification of our public life, are creating and securing the conditions necessary for a really profound revival of religious life.... The National Government regard the two Christian Confessions as the weightiest factors for the maintenance of our nationality. They will respect the agreements concluded between them and the federal States. Their rights are not to be infringed.... It will be the Government's care to maintain honest co-operation between Church and State; the struggle against materialistic views and for a real national community is just as much in the interest of the German nation as in that of the welfare of our Christian faith. The Government of the Reich, who regard Christianity as the unshakable foundation of the morals and moral code of the nation, attach the greatest value to friendly relations with the Holy See and are endeavouring to develop them.

This is completely in line with the narrative I've put forward.