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De or El

от Alkanadi, 31 август 2015

Съобщения: 8

Език: English

Alkanadi (Покажи профила) 31 август 2015, 16:04:38

A person takes a pencil, which was on a table. What is your preference?

Li prenas la krajonon de sur la tablo.
Li prenas la krajonon el sur la tablo.

tommjames (Покажи профила) 31 август 2015, 16:14:15

"De sur". I don't remember ever seeing "el sur".

Alkanadi (Покажи профила) 31 август 2015, 16:25:14

tommjames:"De sur". I don't remember ever seeing "el sur".
That is what William Benson said also.

Can you say this without using sur, or is it wrong:
Li prenas la krajonon el la tablo.

tommjames (Покажи профила) 31 август 2015, 16:38:38

Alkanadi:Can you say this without using sur, or is it wrong:
Li prenas la krajonon el la tablo.
It's grammatically correct but it's a bit strange. In what sense can a pencil come out of a table? The only way I can think of it making sense would be if the table had some drawers or something built into it containing the pencil. But in that case you might be better off saying 'tirkesto' instead of 'tablo'.

If you're just trying to say "took it off the table" then "de sur" or "de" is what you want.

Tempodivalse (Покажи профила) 31 август 2015, 17:22:18

El suggests from the inside of something, or from some kind of enclosure (also possible in a metaphorical sense - cf. traduki el Esperanto). Since a surface is not an enclosure, there appear to be conceptual problems with el sur.

Vestitor (Покажи профила) 31 август 2015, 18:23:27

I'm a bit puzzled about this.

Li prenis la krajonon de sur la tablo is saying: he picked up the pencil from on the table.

Sur is on. I feel that to indicate it coming off the table I'd want to say: 'Li prenis la krajonon kiu estis sur la tablo'.

Is 'de sur la tablo (or whatever)' standard? It feels odd. I also feel like it's missing a positional verb like 'lay':'...which a lay on the table.'

tommjames (Покажи профила) 31 август 2015, 18:51:20

Vestitor:Is 'de sur la tablo (or whatever)' standard?
Yes, 'de sur' is standard for 'off' in Esperanto, if it's a case of something moving or being moved away from whatever it's on, as is the case here. And actually it makes perfect logical sense, because when you take something off the table, you're taking it from (de) a position that is on (sur) the table.

Vetsitor:I also feel like it's missing a positional verb like 'lay':'...which a lay on the table.'
No need for a verb, the position is already shown by the preposition 'sur'.

Alkanadi (Покажи профила) 01 септември 2015, 08:29:23

Vestitor:Is 'de sur la tablo (or whatever)' standard? It feels odd.
I guess it is normal. From the tekstaro:
...kristalaj lustroj pendis de sur la plafono.
De sur la scenejo la spirite kaj...
Kaj nun estu malbenita de sur la tero...
...Li ekstermos vin de sur la tero.
...deprenitaj de sur iliaj dorsoj.

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