erinja:Foreign language learning is often an English speaker's first brush with learning grammatical terminology. It gives you the tools to know what you're talking about. The rest is just details - how does this language express a subjunctive, and under what circumstances is a subjunctive used in that language? Knowing what a subjunctive is reduces the explanation time massively.

I vaguely recall being at a language fair some years ago and seeing books geared towards learners of specific major languages (Spanish, French, etc) and titled something like "English grammar for learners of Spanish". Basically it was a book explaining grammar of a second language by explaining to the student that their first language also has this grammar and this is what it looks like.

"English Grammar for Learners of Esperanto". That is truly an excellent idea. Now all we need is for someone to publish such a book. Here I sit with a worm in my mouth, waiting with baited breath.

Bemused:"English Grammar for Learners of Esperanto". That is truly an excellent idea. Now all we need is for someone to publish such a book. Here I sit with a worm in my mouth, waiting with baited breath.

Actually there is such a book: Notes on English grammar for students of Esperanto by Gabriel Lewis. Here's a review in Esperanto.

I would look for it in the usual places for used Esperanto books.

Armand6:

Vestitor:What they do have is a cultural capital and understanding that isn't acquired from grammar books

... and which is necessary only for emigrants with their menial work, as they are required not to go on natives' nerves too much. International relationships are built on different principles and require professional skills over the conversational ones.

You mean immigrants. Your point, such as it is, might be a good argument for Esperanto.

I think that there might be a good market for a book that explains in Esperanto the finer points of English grammar for foreign learners of English - which is somewhat different to explaining English grammar to native speakers of English wishing to learn Esperanto.

It seems highly likely that the early adopters of Esperanto were people of good educational background, familiar with basic grammatical concepts, and some experience of learning foreign languages. This may well have given them a head start.

Nowadays, any Tom, Dick or Harry with a computer might start learning Esperanto, and they may well find the task more formidable. So it is plausible that the early adopters may well have made more rapid progress.

Being someone who learned his Esperanto from a book (Teach Yourself Esperanto) many years ago, and then acquired fluency by attending congresses, and actually using the language in conversation with other Esperantists, I still can't get my head around the idea that anybody would want to pay to attend a course in Esperanto, or pay to do an exam.

That idea would I think have been laughable also for the early adopters.

sudanglo:...

Being someone who learned his Esperanto from a book (Teach Yourself Esperanto) many years ago, and then acquired fluency by attending congresses, and actually using the language in conversation with other Esperantists, I still can't get my head around the idea that anybody would want to pay to attend a course in Esperanto, or pay to do an exam.

That idea would I think have been laughable also for the early adopters.

I was thinking about this last night. Sackloads of money is made in the TEFL industry and so-called "business English" or "advanced English" courses. Learning through home courses and practical use has been disparaged, or is now seen as a poor alternative to such 'professional' courses...no doubt a result of someone's marketing efforts.

Personally I think a little classroom experience is helpful for interacting with others at a similar level and having a teacher correct the worst habits, but most of the work is done alone or in conversation. Most Esperanto is learned autodidactically.

Vestitor: Learning through home courses and practical use has been disparaged

Of course it is, as it is ineffective. Most people are to stupid to derive grammar rules from the input alone, there is no correction available, and it does not train all 4 skills required to pass the exam.

Armand6:

Vestitor: Learning through home courses and practical use has been disparaged

Of course it is, as it is ineffective. Most people are to stupid to derive grammar rules from the input alone, there is no correction available, and it does not train all 4 skills required to pass the exam.

You say that, but I taught myself Dutch from home-study courses and when I got to Dutch classes in the Netherlands, I discovered they had little to teach me that I hadn't already learned.

On-the-fly correction obviously doesn't work as well as you think it does because you persist in making elementary errors. Home-course perchance?

Vestitor:On-the-fly correction obviously doesn't work as well as you think it does because you persist in making elementary errors.

100% self-taught.

Vestitor:

Armand6:

Vestitor: Learning through home courses and practical use has been disparaged

Of course it is, as it is ineffective. Most people are to stupid to derive grammar rules from the input alone, there is no correction available, and it does not train all 4 skills required to pass the exam.

You say that, but I taught myself Dutch from home-study courses and when I got to Dutch classes in the Netherlands, I discovered they had little to teach me that I hadn't already learned.

On-the-fly correction obviously doesn't work as well as you think it does because you persist in making elementary errors. Home-course perchance?

Is there a particular reason every thread you end up taking a stance on ends up with you berating someone for their perceived intellectual failings? When it is occasional I chalk it up to passion, that some things really are intolerable, and that we all have moments of shirking our rhetorical duties. But Vistitor, not everyone who disagrees with you is obviously suffering from a deficit of information and reasoning. In this case, we have one anecdote between the two of you as evidence, some ad hoc reasoning, plus some ad hominem as garnish. Forgive me if I'm less than impressed by the effort.

I stick my nose in because there is a question here that is very interesting and I was wondering if other people had something substantive to say about it. Is there documented evidence of personal variability in language acquisition? Are some methods demonstrably better than others? Specifically, what of self-study?

These are critical questions for Esperantists in the Internet age. I should think partisans of a particular view would make it their goal to present their case, not berate those who disagree.

Armand6:

Vestitor: Learning through home courses and practical use has been disparaged

Of course it is, as it is ineffective. Most people are to stupid to derive grammar rules from the input alone, there is no correction available, and it does not train all 4 skills required to pass the exam.

Armand6:

Vestitor:On-the-fly correction obviously doesn't work as well as you think it does because you persist in making elementary errors.

100% self-taught.

There we are then.