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How to pronounce krajono, is it "kraj o no" or "kra jo no"?

de aausernameaa, 2015-septembro-08

Mesaĝoj: 31

Lingvo: English

RiotNrrd (Montri la profilon) 2015-septembro-08 22:44:35

jagr2808:... They sound very similar and doesn't really affect the language.
In the first example, kraj is pronounced like the English word "cry". In the second example, kra is pronounced like the English word "craw".

To me, even though both words start with a "kr" sound, that final vowel makes them sound very different.

So the question is, is it cry-oh-no or craw-yo-no? If you think they sound all that similar, you aren't pronouncing them the way I do.

The answer is cry-oh-no.

yyaann (Montri la profilon) 2015-septembro-09 04:26:48

RiotNrrd:In the first example, kraj is pronounced like the English word "cry". In the second example, kra is pronounced like the English word "craw".
Unless I'm much mistaken, craw is pronounced /kroː/ in English whereas as per Esperanto's phonetic rules "kra" should be uttered as something like /kra:/ or /krӕ/ or /krɑ/ or any variation within these boundaries.

In addition, bearing in mind that the phonetic rendition of "cry" is /krai/, I fail to see any significant differences between this and e.g. /kra:/ followed by /i/ or /iː/ or even /j/.

At any rate, these differences may matter in other languages, but with Esperanto having only five vowels, much more pronunciation variation is tolerated.

evanamd (Montri la profilon) 2015-septembro-09 05:45:50

yyaann:
Unless I'm much mistaken, craw is pronounced /kroː/ in English whereas as per Esperanto's phonetic rules "kra" should be uttered as something like /kra:/ or /krӕ/ or /krɑ/ or any variation within these boundaries.
My IPA is a bit rusty, but I think you're confusing "craw" with the bird "crow". I would say "craw" as /krɑ/ and "crow" as /kroː/.

Vestitor (Montri la profilon) 2015-septembro-09 07:57:40

It's a mistake to base it on 'English' pronunciation by mere description. The way I'd say those words as a British English speaker (from the North too), as opposed to a North American accent, is different.

Miland (Montri la profilon) 2015-septembro-09 08:22:17

aausernameaa:How do you pronounce krajono, is it "kraj o no" or "kra jo no"?
Esperanto vowels are pure, and most nouns don't contain diphthongs, so I would go for kra-jo-no.

Rajzin (Montri la profilon) 2015-septembro-09 09:34:45

aausernameaa:Hi, How do you pronounce krajono, is it "kraj o no" or "kra jo no"?
How about Brunajo (Brunei)? Is it "Bru naj o" or Bru na jo"?
How about brunejanino (Bruneian woman)? Is it "bru nej a ni no" or what?
I think I tend towards kra-jo-no and bru-ne-ja-ni-no myself. Mostly because I base my Esperanto vowels on my Japanese ones (except for the u they are much closer to model Esperanto vowels than in English and Dutch), and in Japanese (if V is any vowel) V-jV is much more common than Vj-V, so I guess that tendency carries over to Esperanto for me.

However, just realized that when the accent is on a vowel in front of a j, interestingly I switch between the two based on how fast I say the word. For example, when talking slowly and extra articulated I have a clear preference for:
Bru-naj-o ([bʀu-b]nɑ̯i-jo[/b]]), ler-nej-o ([lɛʀ-ˈb]ne̯i-jo[/b]]) and Es-pe-ran-tuj-o ([ɛs-pɛ-ʀɑn-ˈb]tu̯i-jo[/b]]),

but with anything close to normal talking speeds, it's definitely:
Bru-na-jo ([bʀu-b]nɑː-jo[/b]]), ler-ne-jo ([lɛʀ-ˈb]nɛː-jo[/b]]) and Es-pe-ran-tu-jo ([ɛs-pɛ-ʀɑn-ˈb]tu-jo[/b]]).

Although the line blurs a lot when I don't pay attention to my articulation.

RiotNrrd:So the question is, is it cry-oh-no or craw-yo-no? If you think they sound all that similar, you aren't pronouncing them the way I do.
In my Esperanto accent, when I say kra-jo-no and kraj-o-no a few times alternately, I definitely hear a slight difference. But I tried recording myself doing it and hearing it back, and I really can't tell which is which anymore. So in my case they are practically identical.

sudanglo (Montri la profilon) 2015-septembro-09 10:16:41

In my own pronunciation, I would differentially pronounce the 'aj' in

Kaj Johano diris and Trifoje en la jaro. (when not pausing between words)

As regards the pronunciation of the 'aj' in krajono it would be closer to the 'aj' of kaj than to the 'aj' of la jaro.

Kirilo81 (Montri la profilon) 2015-septembro-09 15:27:22

The j definitely goes with the following syllable, j is a consonant in Esperanto, not a vowel, so it can't form diphthongs.
The mandatory Fundamenta Ekzercaro, §2, has:

kra-jo-no (!), ma-jes-ta, Ma-jo, no example for °Vj-V°!

For some background see the thread linked above.

BTW: Even if you pronounce *kraj-o-no, the a should have no other quality than in kra-jo-no.

sudanglo (Montri la profilon) 2015-septembro-10 10:52:43

'J' is most certainly a consonant when it comes to calculating the number of syllables.

When you get two consonants together in Esperanto, normally both consonants are pronounced - in the sense that the pronunciation is different to what happens with a single consonant

For example, compare 'el landoj foraj'. with 'Nov-Zelando'.

So I ask the question what happens when you get two j's together as in 'Kaj Johano diris'. Would you say that both j's are pronounced? Is this different to 'La trajno foriros de kajo 10'?

Tempodivalse (Montri la profilon) 2015-septembro-10 16:10:28

I pronounce the jo as the Russian e with umlaut - in other words, it attaches to the vowel afterwards. Same with ja. I don't know if it makes an enormous difference in fast speech.

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