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Ĉu usage

de evanamd, 13 de septiembre de 2015

Aportes: 14

Idioma: English

evanamd (Mostrar perfil) 13 de septiembre de 2015 23:34:16

On Duolingo, an accepted translation of "is the map his or hers?" is "Ĉu la mapo estas lia aŭ ŝia?"

This seems ambiguous, since it could be asking "Does the map belong to either him or her?", or it could mean "Is the map his or is the map hers?", so I'm wondering if this is an acceptable usage and how you would answer it. Vortaro.net's entry for ĉu doesn't show anything similar, and I don't know where else I might find examples of it.

Thoughts?

Vestitor (Mostrar perfil) 13 de septiembre de 2015 23:39:36

The two English sentences you gave mean exactly the same thing. If it's his (or hers), it belongs to him (or her).

evanamd (Mostrar perfil) 13 de septiembre de 2015 23:45:32

They're not the same, because in the first I'm asking a yes/no question about if it belongs to either of them (I don't care which). In the second, I'm asking which of the two it belongs to. If I was asked the original question in English, I would interpret it as the second meaning, but I thought ĉu was for yes/no questions, which would suggest the first meaning. That's where my confusion lies

Vestitor (Mostrar perfil) 14 de septiembre de 2015 00:50:58

Well it is a yes/no question in both cases, so the use of ĉu is correct.

To specifically ask about a map (which you know might be the property of either one of two people) you could say: Ĉu ĝi apartenas al li aŭ ŝi?

In both cases it's a question that begins with Ĉu...

evanamd (Mostrar perfil) 14 de septiembre de 2015 02:47:34

It's not a yes/no question in both cases. In one case, it's a yes/no question about both of them: Is it at least one of theirs? In the second case, it's two yes/no questions combined: Is it his or is it hers? Answering yes (or no) to the second question would make it identical to the first case, yes, but in real life it would only make sense to mathematicians or pedantic computer scientists.

I don't doubt that ĉu belongs in the question. I'm confused about whether its scope includes combined yes/no questions that can't be answered with a yes/no. Your example didn't help much, because I have the same concern. Do I answer with the clarifying "ŝi", even though that's not strictly a yes/no answer?

vejktoro (Mostrar perfil) 14 de septiembre de 2015 05:03:41

I'd say "al kiu apartenas..," if I were asking you to pick one or the other.

The Duolang thingy you mention ain't well thought out.

tommjames (Mostrar perfil) 14 de septiembre de 2015 09:03:16

evanamd:On Duolingo, an accepted translation of "is the map his or hers?" is "Ĉu la mapo estas lia aŭ ŝia?"

This seems ambiguous, since it could be asking "Does the map belong to either him or her?", or it could mean "Is the map his or is the map hers?", so I'm wondering if this is an acceptable usage and how you would answer it. Vortaro.net's entry for ĉu doesn't show anything similar, and I don't know where else I might find examples of it.

Thoughts?
Yes the phrase is ambiguous, and yes it is acceptable usage.

"Ĉu" is usually used for yes/no questions but not always. As PMEG says, it can also be used for questions where you require confirmation of one thing or the other. There is an example given that parallels your phrase - "Ĉu vi volas kafon aŭ teon?".

If you don't like the ambiguity then you can always rephrase it, as per vejktoro's suggestion.

Alkanadi (Mostrar perfil) 14 de septiembre de 2015 09:16:22

This is just my opinion.

When Ĉu and aŭ are used in the same sentence it is asking which selection you want.

Examples:

Ĉu la mapo estas lia aŭ ŝia?
Is the map his or is the map hers?

Ĉu vi volas glaciaĵon citronan, ĉokoladan, fragan aŭ vanilan?
Do you want lemon, chocolate, strawberry, or vanilla icecream?

Ĉu hodiaŭ estas varme aŭ malvarme?
Is today hot or is today cold?

Ĉu vi volas kafon aŭ teon?
Do you want coffee or do you want tea?
Se estas pli ol du alternativoj, oni kutime metas aŭ nur antaŭ la lasta...

Ĉu vi volas glaciaĵon citronan, ĉokoladan, fragan aŭ vanilan?

Ĉu hodiaŭ estas varme aŭ malvarme?

Ĉu vi volas kafon aŭ teon? La demandanto verŝajne intencas, ke la demandato elektu nur unu trinkaĵon, ne ambaŭ.

http://bertilow.com/pmeg/gramatiko/kunligaj_vortet...
I think English works the same way. You wouldn't say "yes" or "no" to these questions because it is asking about which selection you want to choose.

sudanglo (Mostrar perfil) 14 de septiembre de 2015 10:01:24

Ĉu la infano estas knabo aŭ knabino?

Not really helpful to answer 'Yes', on the grounds that it must be one or the other.

Sed kompreneble la infano devas esti aŭ knabo aŭ knabino. (According to PIV ne ekzistas vera hermafodito en la homa specio)

By the way, there are plenty hits in the Tekstaro for ĉu X aŭ Y.

Kial vi ne respondas al mi? — Ĉu vi estas surda aŭ muta? — Iru for!

... kiuj jam tiel perdis sian koloron, ke oni ne povis diveni ĉu ili estis bluaj aŭ verdaj

jefusan (Mostrar perfil) 14 de septiembre de 2015 14:37:37

It's nice to know that Esperanto allows you to make the same smartass answer you would be able to make in English.

Q: Do you want coffee or tea?
A: Yes!

It is an interesting point, though. Generally questions in Esperanto are either yes/no questions with ĉu or non-yes/no questions with the "tabelvortoj." I'd never really thought about the third case of the aŭ questions.

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