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Jordan as "Dowling Method" for Esperanto?

від Bruso, 8 листопада 2015 р.

Повідомлення: 60

Мова: English

Bruso (Переглянути профіль) 8 листопада 2015 р. 03:28:42

The Dowling method is a language-learning method, usually for Latin (or Ancient Greek) that begins with a brute-force memorization of grammatical forms:

Dowling Method

You may wonder what this would have to do with Esperanto, which lacks the multiple cases and noun declensions, multiple verb conjugations by person and number, irregular forms of all these, etc.

But the late Don Harlow, in a review
 of David Jordan's "Being Colloquial in Esperanto", said:
Despite this book's basic purpose (to help the English-speaking reader understand more about Esperanto), and despite the fact that it's definitely not a textbook, I would say that it's actually possible to learn the language from scratch via the first half of this book. Not for everybody, of course, but for the committed individual who is willing to plow through 118 pages of great (though never excruciating!) detail about Esperanto, its grammar and its word-formation system without drills or exercises. The fact that Jordan has a terribly dry sense of humor, which he doesn't hesitate to share with the reader, makes this relatively painless. By the time you reach the end of that first section, you should have a full command of the language, except, perhaps, for vocabulary
Sounds like as close to the Dowling Method as Esperanto can come - learn all the grammar first, then focus on vocabulary.

Does anyone know of anyone who learned Esperanto this way? Would you recommend it to Harlow's "committed individual"?

Alkanadi (Переглянути профіль) 8 листопада 2015 р. 06:11:41

These days linguists are saying that grammar should be embedded rather than memorised.

I think most people find grammar boring.

Personally, I think that the best method to learning almost anything is military style drills.

sudanglo (Переглянути профіль) 8 листопада 2015 р. 11:10:12

There was something in the New Scientist recently about the scheduling of testing for effective retention - "scheduling tests at just the right time can stop you gradually forgetting what you have learned".

There's a graph on page 43 of the 31st October issue, but I found it a little difficult to interpret.

However, it is clear that with no testing of what has been learnt, the percentage retention after 6 months is very low.

Miland (Переглянути профіль) 8 листопада 2015 р. 12:08:21

I would not recommend Jordan as a book to learn from, though it may be useful as a reference book later on. David Richardson's Esperanto: Learning and Using the International Language would be more suitable.

Other alternatives include Butler's Step by Step and (if you can get hold of s used copy) Teach Yourself Esperanto.

Best of all (for beginners, at least) work through some of the courses on this website, as they have tutorial help.

Vestitor (Переглянути профіль) 8 листопада 2015 р. 13:22:32

Alkanadi:These days linguists are saying that grammar should be embedded rather than memorised.

I think most people find grammar boring.

Personally, I think that the best method to learning almost anything is military style drills.
I agree somewhat with the latter, but not particularly with mindless drilling. Everyone observes that immersion in language usage is what generates fluency and causes everything to fall into place (a sort of active, functional drilling.)
In modern language teaching, especially when national languages are taught to immigrants, grammar is pared down to a mere handful of rules enabling you to get started as soon as possible. It is in fact similar to the sort of one-page sheets of Esperanto grammar rules that allows a student to jump in without being swamped in a quagmire of grammar. In this scenario acquiring vocabulary and using in creative ways becomes the key to developing fluency. It is possible with just a basic grammar under your belt.

robbkvasnak (Переглянути профіль) 8 листопада 2015 р. 17:51:53

I have not looked at the 'Dowling Method' but I suppose that it relies heavily on the memorization of 'grammar words' [prepositions, conjunctions, articles, etc.] as opposed to 'content words' - which some use to mean 'vocabulary'. For people with mathematical learning skills this may be useful. Howard Gardner has done extensive research on learning strategies and has found that everybody is different. He says that there are no bad students, just poor approaches for certain people. I once studied Mandarin in college and I had a fellow student who had no problems memorizing the characters [which I find very difficult] but he had enormous problems with pronunciation [which I find easy]. To each his own. The more approaches that are available, the better. Every student should be aware of her or his specific learning skills.

Vestitor (Переглянути профіль) 8 листопада 2015 р. 20:18:28

^ I agree with this. Which is why it seems sensible to start with a bare-bones approach and allow people to progress in a made-to-measure way. It is the opposite of old language learning (like Latin at my school) which was the educational equivalent of being given a 1 million piece jigsaw and a rule book as thick as a telephone directory (remember those?) as the guide to doing it. You seem to never actually get started.

Bruso (Переглянути профіль) 9 листопада 2015 р. 02:44:21

robbkvasnak:I have not looked at the 'Dowling Method' but I suppose that it relies heavily on the memorization of 'grammar words' [prepositions, conjunctions, articles, etc.] as opposed to 'content words' - which some use to mean 'vocabulary'.
For Latin it focuses mostly on endings - case and plural endings for nouns, person-number-tense-mood for verbs.

Bruso (Переглянути профіль) 9 листопада 2015 р. 02:46:05

Miland:I would not recommend Jordan as a book to learn from, though it may be useful as a reference book later on.
Harlow didn't recommend it for ALL beginners, either. He thought an exceptionally dedicated (and grammar-savvy in English) person could learn Esperanto from scratch that way - minus some vocabulary.

Tempodivalse (Переглянути профіль) 9 листопада 2015 р. 14:55:21

Vestitor:old language learning (like Latin at my school) which was the educational equivalent of being given a 1 million piece jigsaw and a rule book as thick as a telephone directory (remember those?) as the guide to doing it. You seem to never actually get started.
Well, that's how I learned Esperanto, more or less. I checked out a few 1920s grammar books, found a reputable dictionary, and got to work deciphering real-world Esperanto texts (Vikipedio etc.)

It's not rocket science. This is the way learned people learned languages in the days before methods like Pimsleur or Duolingo (or even the State Department's manuals - which are really good by the way). Essentially, sit down with a bilingual dictionary, a few texts in the target language, and see what you can do.

This works surprisingly well for Indo-European languages, at least (maybe not so much with Swahili or Vietnamese). But it doesn't work for everyone. You need to be comfortable with self-guided learning. You need a large attention span, a lot of motivation, and a strong understanding of grammatical and linguistic concepts in order to make sense of what you see (e.g., "Aha, I never see subject pronouns, so this must be a pro-drop language" ). You also need lots of free time, which is the real sticking point for a lot of people. It's easier to just plug Pimsleur into your car stereo for 30 minutes a day.

But I'm convinced that the "old-fashioned method" remains effective. It exposes you to more grammar and vocabulary as soon as possible. And if the target language is Esperanto, it will be much less daunting due to its extreme regularity, meaning you can confidently generalise what you see.

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