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mem usage

di ash_fred, 18 novembre 2015

Messaggi: 10

Lingua: English

ash_fred (Mostra il profilo) 18 novembre 2015 17:12:27

Saluton! I am a beginner Esperantisto and I have a question about this word "mem".

I'm doing the Duolingo Tree, and I've come across this exercise:
"Bone, mi purigos ĝin mem."
whose translation is
"Okay, I will clean it myself."

But I rather put "Okay, I will clean it itself. " as a translation though I knew it doesn't really sound natural and it was, as one could expect, marked wrong.
Anyway, I thought mem must stick to the word that is qualified, like
"Bone, mi mem purigos ĝin."
Am I wrong? Does mem always qualify the subject or it depends on the context?

nornen (Mostra il profilo) 18 novembre 2015 17:29:04

Apparently the adverb "mem" can move around quite freely in a sentence.

Some Zamenhovian examples:
Por mallonge diri, la doktoro estis liberigita de sia ofico kaj de sia respondeco, kaj Alfred prenis ĝin mem sur sin kaj komencis sian vojaĝon de l’ vivo.
(At least I suppose that mem refers to Alfred and not to gxin.)
La hela fajro gaje krakadis kaj saltadis, kvazaŭ ĝi pro granda ĝojo mem volus danci.

Vestitor (Mostra il profilo) 18 novembre 2015 17:47:05

In the example from the OP,taken from Duolingo, I don't think its unreasonable for learners to think that mem should be next to the word to which it relates. After all there are many such words that supposedly work that way in Esperanto and the Duolingo course routinely marks answers wrong for not using them that way.

Personally I don't see why such a sentence needs to be reflexive in this way. "I'll clean it then" gives exactly the same information. Adding 'myself/herself/himself' is mere repetition. A bit like saying: "I like my favourite ice-cream". Obviously you do if it's your favourite.

erinja (Mostra il profilo) 18 novembre 2015 22:32:03

It is a weird sentence. If you said "Mi purigos min mem", it absolutely does mean "I will clean myself", so I can see the confusion between my sentence with mi and your sentence with ĝi.

In proper context I think the meaning of your sentence would be clearly what the course is looking for - Ho, vi rifuzas purigi ĝin? Bone, mi purigos ĝin mem.

But out of context, it's not a great sentence, and the meaning would be clearer as "Mi mem purigos ĝin".

You might report it to the Duolingo staff as a confusing sentence. It's true that "mem" may migrate around the sentence but it is also true that "mem" is most commonly placed near noun or pronoun that it refers to, and with the right context, that particular sentence definitely could be interpreted either way.

ash_fred (Mostra il profilo) 19 novembre 2015 12:44:18

Thank you all very much!

eshapard (Mostra il profilo) 24 novembre 2015 21:22:22

I think both translations would be correct for that sentence. Out of context, it's ambiguous.

Mem usually intensifies the noun that comes before it... but not always. If context makes it clear what's being intensified, mem can go in other places.

It doesn't always intensify the subject; it can intensify nouns anywhere in the sentence.

"Mi vidis la viro mem!" - I saw the man himself!... or is it... I saw the man myself? Without any context to say otherwise, I'd go with the former.

RiotNrrd (Mostra il profilo) 24 novembre 2015 21:46:56

eshapard:"Mi vidis la viroN mem!"

eshapard (Mostra il profilo) 25 novembre 2015 00:06:53

RiotNrrd:
eshapard:"Mi vidis la viroN mem!"
Oops, left the n off of the accusative. You got me.

RiotNrrd (Mostra il profilo) 25 novembre 2015 00:28:11

Technically, it could have gone either way.

Min vidis la viro mem.

I had to just guess which was correct. ridulo.gif

DuckFiasco (Mostra il profilo) 25 novembre 2015 04:32:26

Reta Vortaro says "mem" also means:

"Nur per si, sen helpo aŭ iniciato de iu alia; fare kaj vole de si sendepende de iu alia; spontanee, propramove kaj propraforte"

"Only by oneself, without help or prompting by another; wanted and done by oneself independent of another; spontaneously, by through one's own motivation and strength"

So the sentence in question doesn't strike me as ambiguous at all.

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