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h vs hx

от ludomastro, 05 януари 2016

Съобщения: 28

Език: English

nornen (Покажи профила) 07 януари 2016, 01:30:51

Roch:At this site:

http://www.acapela-group.com/

I selected Spanish (Spain) Maria

with the word jota, that's usually the word they take to say that they got the ĥ
The site you linked is funny. It knows the Spanish variations Spanish (Spain) and Spanish (US)... Or does US refer to the Americas in general? Or only to Brooklynriqueños? Or does it refer to the Estados Unidos de México? It says English (USA) and Spanish (US)...

I wrote this message in English (GT).

Also let María say "Benito Carlos de León" and "Siento que me tuesto".

robbkvasnak (Покажи профила) 07 януари 2016, 01:50:05

The sound ĥ is becoming more and more rare in Esperanto. This is no shame but rather a typical linguistic evolution. Using it is just another freedom in Esperanto. You can use ĥoro or koruso - but the latter is becomiing more frequent and the former less so.

Kirilo81 (Покажи профила) 07 януари 2016, 09:57:28

robbkvasnak:You can use ĥoro or koruso
In fact as long as koruso is not officialized or declared a tolerated synonym to the Fundamento word ĥoro by the Akademio de Esperanto, its use is against the norm.
Most synonyms to ĥ-words have been officialized, but koruso (and e.g. kolerao) not.

ludomastro (Покажи профила) 07 януари 2016, 13:15:27

Kirilo81:
robbkvasnak:You can use ĥoro or koruso
In fact as long as koruso is not officialized or declared a tolerated synonym to the Fundamento word ĥoro by the Akademio de Esperanto, its use is against the norm.
Most synonyms to ĥ-words have been officialized, but koruso (and e.g. kolerao) not.
Which presupposes that the Akademio has de facto control over Esperanto. I submit that Esperanto is a living language and, as such, it can not be controlled by any governing body. Language is messy and living language evolves regardless of what a governing body says. If Esperanto speakers use koruso, then hxoro will eventually fall out of favor. If people start to drop the 'e' from esti (e.g. Mi stas malsata.) I'm sure we'll cope just fine.

I'll keep trying to learn the original pronunciation and will likely use the original spelling for formal writing; however, I'm glad that there's an alternative.

Kirilo81 (Покажи профила) 07 януари 2016, 13:33:20

ludomastro, please bear in mind that Esperanto is not like any other language, by the mere fact that it is deliberately and consciously learned as a second language by grown/growing-ups (except for a few denaskuloj), while other languages are learned unconsciously by young children.
It is not a priori plausible to expect it to behave just like any other language with regard to other linguistic aspects, too. Norm is a good example, because in other languages it crucially depends on the judgement of the native speakers. What should a language without such do, if not consciously select a written base and a body of people giving advice on its base? Here we are: the Fundamento and the Akademio.

bartlett22183 (Покажи профила) 07 януари 2016, 19:48:44

robbkvasnak:The sound ĥ is becoming more and more rare in Esperanto. This is no shame but rather a typical linguistic evolution. Using it is just another freedom in Esperanto. You can use ĥoro or koruso - but the latter is becomiing more frequent and the former less so.
I myself think this is unfortunate, perhaps because I have no difficulty pronouncing <ĥ>, and it both enriches the language and to some extent reproduces the origins of words, especially those coming from Greek with the sound. Nevertheless, I grudgingly admit that it may be passing away from the language.

erinja (Покажи профила) 07 януари 2016, 20:18:53

Hx can't possibly go away. It's in the Fundamento, so it's here to stay, even if some people choose to avoid it.

I like it, myself, and it makes it easy for me to make accurate Esperanto names of various Jewish holidays, which I greatly appreciate (ĥanuko, pesaĥo). I've always found it a bit of a bother that English doesn't have this sound, or a fixed letter or combination of letters to unambiguously indicate this soudn, making it difficult for anyone who has this sound in their name, and difficult to describe to people how to pronounce certain things.

Vestitor (Покажи профила) 07 януари 2016, 20:53:22

Is this really English-driven above of all? I recall noticing that the Duolingo course chose 'Arkitekto' instead of 'Arĥitekto' - amongst other words.

erinja (Покажи профила) 07 януари 2016, 21:28:44

Vestitor:Is this really English-driven above of all? I recall noticing that the Duolingo course chose 'Arkitekto' instead of 'Arĥitekto' - amongst other words.
Some of the main people behind that course are native English speakers. I have no clue why they made certain decisions but I have a vague recollection of seeing elsewhere that they did not always choose to go with traditional forms. I haven't done the course, this is based only on what I've seen in forum questions. They certainly went with -io instead of -ujo for country forms, which makes it more difficult later to learn how to call the inhabitants of a country.

Tsahraf (Покажи профила) 16 януари 2016, 20:15:41

I was wondering just recently whether hxo was uvular or velar.

I am sad, actually, to see the sound falling out of use. I see it as deterioration of a language when it loses a sound. It becomes more primitive, less human, less expressive, less useful. It is entropy.

Nice thread!

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