How to best express "to shimmy" in Esp?
של robbkvasnak, 24 בינואר 2016
הודעות: 48
שפה: English
Polaris (הצגת פרופיל) 25 בינואר 2016, 16:50:45
sudanglo:Shimmy is an unusual verb to apply to tree climbing. As Vestitor says, it would be more normal to say shin up a tree.I am a native English speaker from the U.S., and I can't recall ever hearing the expression "to shin up". To my knowledge, it simply isn't used here. But "to shimmy up" is normal, everyday usage meaning to climb by wrapping one's legs and arms around a vertical object such as a tree, rope, or pole without having anything to grab other than the object. If someone climbs a pole or a rope, etc., in that manner, we're as likely to say "he shimmied up the __________" as we are to say "he climbed the _________".
Personally, I think "supren-grimpi" pretty well covers it, and "supren-rampi" would be even more descriptive. It would depend on what you wanted to emphasize--the fact of someone going up the tree or the manner in which the tree was ascended.
robbkvasnak (הצגת פרופיל) 25 בינואר 2016, 16:53:49
Take a look: http://aschmann.net/AmEng/
Vestitor (הצגת פרופיל) 25 בינואר 2016, 17:39:57
Polaris:With all due respect to your regional variation, there are no standard dictionary entries (or any at all?) that define shimmying as climbing in that way; all do define 'shinning' or 'to shin (up)' as climbing in that way.sudanglo:Shimmy is an unusual verb to apply to tree climbing. As Vestitor says, it would be more normal to say shin up a tree.I am a native English speaker from the U.S., and I can't recall ever hearing the expression "to shin up". To my knowledge, it simply isn't used here. But "to shimmy up" is normal, everyday usage meaning to climb by wrapping one's legs and arms around a vertical object such as a tree, rope, or pole without having anything to grab other than the object.
As untangling of origins of usage is never an easy business it's hard to say, but I suspect it could have something to do with the movements made when trying to climb this way. It is not standard though and I don't think translating slang or regional usages is all that productive.
I wouldn't ask how to translate "I had a gander or a 'shufti'" which are fairly common slang words for 'look' in the UK (the latter is actually Arabic). What i need to translate are look/peek/glimpse etc. Translating non-standard words gets you into all kinds of difficulties.
I know a storm of hatred will rain down on me for saying it, but I think there are numerous words in American English that are outright wrong usages that have been standardised through long-term usage. And they stem from rural communities.
Before anyone accuses me of prejudice I'll also say this was also common in the English village I was born in. The word 'obstroculous' was commonly said, as well as obstropolous. Both are illiterate forms of obstreperous, with the former probably incorporating 'obstruct' into its meaning. Another is weary used to mean wary or 'leery'. Even though this likely has some dialect version of 'wary' behind it, it's not standard and I wouldn't bother trying to translate it and getting confused with the common meaning of 'weary'.
nornen (הצגת פרופיל) 25 בינואר 2016, 17:43:10
Vestitor:With all due respect to your regional variation, there are no standard dictionary entries (or any at all?) that define shimmying as climbing in that way; all do define 'shinning' or 'to shin (up)' as climbing in that way.Merriam-Webster defines:
Full Definition of shimmyNumber 3 links to:
shim·mied shim·my·ing
1: to shake, quiver, or tremble in or as if in dancing a shimmy
2: to vibrate abnormally —used especially of automobiles
3: shinny
Full Definition of shinnyI have no idea though how "standard" Merriam-Webster is...
shin·nied shin·ny·ing
: to move oneself up or down something vertical (as a pole) especially by alternately hugging it with the arms or hands and the legs
Vestitor (הצגת פרופיל) 25 בינואר 2016, 18:08:39
robbkvasnak (הצגת פרופיל) 25 בינואר 2016, 19:59:35
I use the common language that we use here. It serves my purposes. I do not own an Oxford dictionary nor will I ever. For me, the way they speak English in Europe is their problem, not mine. In fact, Benjamin Franklin and Noah Webster consciously changed the spelling of our language and it is fine with me.
The reason that I asked about 'shimmy' was because it was used on TV during a PBS (Public Broadcasting System)report on Polynnesia. The announcer said: "This guy just shimmied up a coconut palm" and I am always looking for words I don't know in Esperanto.
In Esperanto it IS important to me which expression will be most widely understood since I use Esperanto for international communications. What happens to the various varieties of English is of little concern to me. My question was not about the correctness of "shimmy" but rather how to say that in Esperanto. Voila!
Polaris (הצגת פרופיל) 25 בינואר 2016, 20:31:10
nornen:Hi, Noren--Merriam-Webster is an authoritative source of standard English and is completely reliable. I see that "shinny" was first used in 1672, and that "shimmy" was first used in 1851, so apparently "to shimmy" is simply a more modern version of the word. At any rate, we now know that "to shimmy" is not slang, nor is it colloquial; it is standard, ordinary English, albeit from what we're being told it is not used in Great Britain. Interesting! We've learned something. Not only do we now know how to say it in Esperanto, but we know more about it in English. I love stuff like this!Vestitor:With all due respect to your regional variation, there are no standard dictionary entries (or any at all?) that define shimmying as climbing in that way; all do define 'shinning' or 'to shin (up)' as climbing in that way.Merriam-Webster defines:Full Definition of shimmyNumber 3 links to:
shim·mied shim·my·ing
1: to shake, quiver, or tremble in or as if in dancing a shimmy
2: to vibrate abnormally —used especially of automobiles
3: shinnyFull Definition of shinnyI have no idea though how "standard" Merriam-Webster is...
shin·nied shin·ny·ing
: to move oneself up or down something vertical (as a pole) especially by alternately hugging it with the arms or hands and the legs
Vestitor (הצגת פרופיל) 25 בינואר 2016, 20:36:56
I know the question concerned the translation into Esperanto of the word for climbing up a tree in particular way, but I maintain that 'shimmy' is not it; PBS usage notwithstanding.
Vestitor (הצגת פרופיל) 25 בינואר 2016, 20:43:59
Polaris:It is regional and it's not accurate. The word 'Shimmy' does exist in the UK, used in it's common and original sense of shaking the body in a particular way. I think the cursory addition of "Shinny" in the list at number 3 in the MW dictionary shows the words have become conflated over time and merged somewhat in popular usage.
Hi, Noren--Merriam-Webster is an authoritative source of standard English and is completely reliable. I see that "shinny" was first used in 1672, and that "shimmy" was first used in 1851, so apparently "to shimmy" is simply a more modern version of the word. At any rate, we now know that "to shimmy" is not slang, nor is it colloquial; it is standard, ordinary English, albeit from what we're being told it is not used in Great Britain. Interesting! We've learned something. Not only do we now know how to say it in Esperanto, but we know more about it in English. I love stuff like this!
According to Wittgensteinian views, as long as everyone is aware of the meaning attached to a word, and accepts it, then any word could be used to denote anything. If certain regions of the U.S. use 'shimmy' to mean something in complete contradiction to the original and still-current meaning, then so be it. It wouldn't be the first time.
Polaris (הצגת פרופיל) 25 בינואר 2016, 21:34:39
Vestitor:Vestitor, the Merriam-Webster dictionary has stated that the word "shimmy" with the sense under discussion is synonymous with the word "skinny" (a word we do not use here), and that it has been used since 1851. I'm really not sure what the "push-back" is all about as really, nobody here is trying to prove a point except (apparently) you. The OP wanted to know how to say it in E-o; that objective was completed. He wasn't asking whether you (or anybody else) approved of the way he said it in English. I'm quite sure that none of us is going to change the way we say the word in deference to someone else's views about what constitutes a regionalism, what's slang, or whether or not his usage would pass muster on the other side of the pond.Polaris:It is regional and it's not accurate. The word 'Shimmy' does exist in the UK, used in it's common and original sense of shaking the body in a particular way. I think the cursory addition of "Shinny" in the list at number 3 in the MW dictionary shows the words have become conflated over time and merged somewhat in popular usage.
Hi, Noren--Merriam-Webster is an authoritative source of standard English and is completely reliable. I see that "shinny" was first used in 1672, and that "shimmy" was first used in 1851, so apparently "to shimmy" is simply a more modern version of the word. At any rate, we now know that "to shimmy" is not slang, nor is it colloquial; it is standard, ordinary English, albeit from what we're being told it is not used in Great Britain. Interesting! We've learned something. Not only do we now know how to say it in Esperanto, but we know more about it in English. I love stuff like this!
According to Wittgensteinian views, as long as everyone is aware of the meaning attached to a word, and accepts it, then any word could be used to denote anything. If certain regions of the U.S. use 'shimmy' to mean something in complete contradiction to the original and still-current meaning, then so be it. It wouldn't be the first time.
Thus far, your contributions to the thread have been to say that nobody 'shimmies' up a tree, that there's no conventional usage for the word "shimmying" other than to shimmy one's body, and that no standard dictionary defines shimmying the way we're discussing. You were clearly wrong on all three counts. Then you said that as far as you're concerned, there's no sense in translating slang or regional usage-and that much American usage is just simply 'wrong'. As an interpreter with thousands of hours of platform interpreting experience as well as as a translator, I categorically disagree--if there are slang or regional usages that I'm going to encounter, then I say "bring it on"--I want to know how to express every thought with as little guessing or circumlocution as is practically possible---but be that as it may, the OP simply wanted to know how to say "shimmy up a tree"---let's not get lost in the weeds so far that we lose sight of that, and let's be careful not to be disrespectful or unnecessarily high-handed about how we answer such questions. Overstating your opinion that you consider someone's word choice sub-standard borders on insulting.