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Esperanto in the News: Language and the flow of ideas

by Alkanadi, March 2, 2016

Messages: 6

Language: English

Alkanadi (User's profile) March 2, 2016, 8:06:27 AM

Does language control the flow of ideas like George Orwell suggested?

"One of Pagel's research areas charts the density of various languages. His data shows multiple languages exist side by side in areas that are heavily populated, perhaps as a means to control the flow of ideas. He hopes that one day language will evolve to minimize conflict, just as Zamenhof hoped harmony would flourish with the universal adoption of Esperanto."

http://www.dailyherald.com/article/20160229/entlif...

Ibraesil (User's profile) March 2, 2016, 12:49:22 PM

Alkanadi:Does language control the flow of ideas like George Orwell suggested?
The way to test this would be by teaching someone Lojban/Loglan or Ithkuil or something as a first language, because they're so unlike any natural language. Until something like that does happen (which doesn't seem likely), it's pretty much impossible to say for sure either way.

sudanglo (User's profile) March 3, 2016, 1:32:16 PM

When Pagel refers to language controlling the flow of ideas, I think he has in mind that different languages act as a barrier to the flow of ideas across groups as well as allowing the flow of ideas within a group that has a common language.

This is a somewhat different point of view to the Orwellian concept of preventing people from thinking in certain ways (and encouraging certain attitudes) by modifying the language.

Not 'bad' just 'ungood'.

However it is a debatable point as to whether the Esperantists are more approving and less condemnatory because they say malbona.

Luib (User's profile) March 3, 2016, 4:54:52 PM

Alkanadi:Does language control the flow of ideas like George Orwell suggested?
I've recently read a book by Guy Deutscher on this topic (Through the language glass, Wilhelm Heinemann, London, 2010). His conclusion in short: speaking a certain language does not stop or enable you to think in a certain way, but it does encourage you to or make it easier. Poor colour naming, especially in so-called native languages, does not stop them perceiving colours, but they do take (a little) longer to see the difference between what we would call e.g. green and blue; on the other hand, speakers of the Australian language [url=en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guugu Yimithirr language]Guugu Yimithirr[/url] always knew where was which cardinal direction (because originally their language did not use the words right and left to indicate position - but this has changed now under the influence of English).

sudanglo (User's profile) March 5, 2016, 12:27:59 PM

As we are talking about the flow of ideas, there is an obvious point to make.

If your language does not have a convenient way of labelling some idea, it does clearly become less easy to influence others.

The resources of a language influence the rhetorical power you have in that language.

A example might be that as Esperanto does not have a ready equivalent of 'evil' (malbonega is more like very bad) it becomes more difficult to condemn a certain act and persuade others to view the act in a certain light.

Miland (User's profile) March 7, 2016, 8:55:04 AM

In my view malbona has the advantage of being in harmony with the idea that that evil is not absolute but parasitic on, or a perversion of something that is good. I don't think that simplicity of expression is a barrier to 'rhetorical power', though the influence of speech may have as much to do with the audience and their relationship to the speaker, as the content - witness Donald Trump's performance among American Republicans, in comparison with Hilary Benn's speech on Syria.

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