Messages: 94
Language: English
richardhall (User's profile) May 17, 2016, 9:05:44 AM
Interestingly, "iras ĉe vi" is found in the Tekstaro, but it doesn't have anything to do with movement towards. It's a translation from the Old Testament, Ruth 3:16 where the English sentence "How did it go, my daughter?" is rendered "Kiel la afero iras ĉe vi, mia filino?"
Alkanadi (User's profile) May 17, 2016, 9:40:11 AM
Miland:Mi iros ĉe vi would be wrong
richardhall:"iras ĉe vi" is found in the Tekstaro
Alkanadi (User's profile) May 17, 2016, 9:44:27 AM
Take a look at these sentences:
Mi iras al besto <--- Correct
Mi iras beston <--- Correct
Mi iras al vi <--- Correct
Mi iras vin <--- Incorrect. I guess this is an exception?
Vestitor (User's profile) May 17, 2016, 9:58:44 AM
Alkanadi:To eliminate the confusion, I will just ask one question at a time.Can I just be dense for a moment? Even a sentence like Mi iras beston just seems to me completely pointless as a structure when Mi iras al la besto is standard, easy and correct.
Take a look at these sentences:
Mi iras al besto <--- Correct
Mi iras beston <--- Correct
Mi iras al vi <--- Correct
Mi iras vin <--- Incorrect. I guess this is an exception?
What gain is there in thrashing all of this out? How many people are going to say: Mi iras vin? The answer seems to be: none.
Miland (User's profile) May 17, 2016, 10:16:40 AM
Alkanadi:Not so. PMEG 12.2.5 refers to names of places ending in -o, not things. The word besto does not refer to a place. and therefore we do not say Mi iras beston.
Mi iras beston <--- Correct
dbob (User's profile) May 17, 2016, 11:47:51 AM
Alkanadi:You are suggesting that a preposition is required to turn the personal pronoun into a location.I'm not suggesting anything, just saying what I observed. I've never seen in Esperanto such a thing as turning a personal pronoun into a location by means of a preposition. "Ĉe" doesn't turn "vi(n)" into a location, it simply indicates that the situation of the location is "ĉe vi", there where you are, in this case at your home. And "ĉe vin" is indicating movement toward that location where you are.
Alkanadi: 1, Why are these not equivalent?Same reason why this isn't equivalent in English:
Mi iras vin = Mi iras al vi
I go you <> I go to/toward(s) you
Alkanadi:2, What is the different between these two sentences?Morgaŭ mi venos en vian domon (the movement happens toward -the inside of- the location)
Morgaŭ mi venos ĉe vin
Morgaŭ mi venos ĉe vi
Morgaŭ mi venos [dum vi estas] en via domo (the movement happens inside of the location, and is not directed toward the location itself)
Alkanadi:3, Why are these sentences acceptable since there is no preposition?Because they are locations, in a real or figurative sense.
...mi iris Rusujon por ekvidi...
...mi iris sudflankon de la insulo...
Sed plaĉas al Li tiuj, kiuj iras vojon pian.
Alkanadi:4, If people cannot be a position or direction (without a preposition to mark the x and y coordinates), then what about animals, ghosts, clouds, smoke, lightning, germs, ect..?People (animals, ghosts, clouds, etc.) are not locations.
Kirilo81 (User's profile) May 17, 2016, 11:53:27 AM
Alkanadi:1, Why are these not equivalent?Uff, I had to wait a minute in order not to use capslock. So, again:
Mi iras vin = Mi iras al vi
[...]
3, Why are these sentences acceptable since there is no preposition?
...mi iris Rusujon por ekvidi...
...mi iris sudflankon de la insulo...
Sed plaĉas al Li tiuj, kiuj iras vojon pian.
4, If people cannot be a position or direction (without a preposition to mark the x and y coordinates), then what about animals, ghosts, clouds, smoke, lightning, germs, ect..?
The goal accusative can appear only with a place. A place is a either a prepositional phrase or a noun indicating a place. People, ghosts, smoke, germs... are no places. Places are places, or something else made a place by a local preposition. There ist no irregularity or inconsistency in this.
BTW: In iri vojon the accusative doesn't indicate a goal; it is the cognate accusative (interna komplemento) I've mentioned above.
Alkanadi:2, What is the different between these two sentences?The difference is that the second sentence doesn't make sense.
Morgaŭ mi venos ĉe vin
Morgaŭ mi venos ĉe vi
Alkanadi:No contradiction at all, the second quote is taken totally out of context.
Miland:
Mi iros ĉe vi would be wrongrichardhall:
"iras ĉe vi" is found in the Tekstaro
Miland (User's profile) May 17, 2016, 12:20:02 PM
Alkanadi:Yes, and as Richard and Kirilo81 explained, in that context it means something quite different than going to someone's place. It means something like "(How's it) going with you?"richardhall:"iras ĉe vi" is found in the Tekstaro
Alkanadi (User's profile) May 17, 2016, 3:31:28 PM
Miland:Thanks. I didn't know that.Alkanadi:Mi iras beston <--- CorrectNot so. PMEG 12.2.5 refers to names of places ending in -o, not things. The word besto does not refer to a place. and therefore we do not say Mi iras beston.
Now the question is, why is it okay to say Mi iras al besto if an animal cannot be a place?
Miland (User's profile) May 17, 2016, 3:37:51 PM
Alkanadi:why is it okay to say Mi iras al besto if an animal cannot be a place?Because al here means towards, rather than occupying the same location as the animal.